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Old 04-19-2005, 05:49 PM   #136
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well-said by Savage! True, there are the fundamentalist pre-Vatican II types out there, but I'm hoping they are eclipsed by more forward thinkers. With Ratzinger in, it will be interesting (and not in a good way) to see if they become more visible and outspoken.

FullonEdge, I understand your point--I guess that I see religion as a cultural system rather than as strictly a belief system. I view it rather holistically: religion pertains to beliefs about the supernatural, it offers a prescriptive moral code...and all that. But it also has to do with a group's identity, and that is rooted in culture, history, ethnicity, and all the rest. I don't think religion as being an inherent part of one's ethnicity (as it is for me, as an Italian-American) necessarily dilutes it. And again, I just don't there are any doctrines where people follow 100%. Those become terrifying when they do exist, and we get cults.

xhendrix,

Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511




well, it depends. Dan Savage, sex columnist extraordinairre, brings up this very savvy point:



"What's maddening about this pope's signature gay bashing is this: When the pope — the dead one, the next one, the one after that — says something stupid about homosexuality, straight folks take it to heart. The church's efforts have helped defeat gay rights bills, led to the omission of gays and lesbians from hate-crime statutes, and helped to pass anti-gay-marriage amendments. But when a pope says something stupid about heterosexuality, straight Americans go deaf. And this pope had plenty to say about heterosexual sex — no contraceptives, no premarital sex, no blowjobs, no jerkin' off, no divorce, no remarriage, no artificial insemination, no blowjobs, no three-ways, no swinging, no blowjobs, no anal. Did I mention no blowjobs? John Paul II had more "no's" for straight people than he did for gays. But when he tried to meddle in the private lives of straights, the same people who deferred to his delicate sensibilities where my rights were concerned suddenly blew the old asshole off. Gay blowjobs are expendable, it seems; straight ones are sacred."
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Old 04-19-2005, 05:50 PM   #137
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Hey Melon: Can you clue me in on this "Catholic apparitionists/evil Pope" thing? (And did Nostradamus predict this? LOL...NOT.)

I think this calls for a new Dan Brown novel. Something smells quite fishy here..but after 5 yrs of Dubya crap, and cover-ups, I'm used to it by now.

The only good thing is, this papacy will be short. If the much more vigorous and athletic JP2 was dead by 84, then this guy might begin to fade quickly.

On the bright side, this might be a good thing: if he turns out to be the "evil Pope", then the cardinals will better appreciate just what they lost in JP 2 (I don't think they appreicate it well enough now), and next time will be much more open to swinging back more forcefully in the JP direction. If a moderate had gooten in now, then people would accuse him of being "wishy-washy." And elect a conserbatuve down the road. Maybe we need a train wreck right now. I don't know, I certainly don't approve, but I'm a cockeyed optimist. I just finished reading "Man of the Century", and learned just what a bastard RATzinger (aptly named) is.

Fasten your seat belts folks, and ladies, if you even have THOUGHTS aobut the morning after pill, you'd better buy a years' supply from the pharmacy, because the paharmacies of America might not even carry BIRTH CONTROL now...
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Old 04-19-2005, 06:10 PM   #138
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Catholicism is the best religion for me to follow. I don't agree with everything, but plenty of practicing Catholics don't. Many use birth control, but get solace, peace, and clarity of conscience with mass attendance, the reception of sacraments, etc, etc. In some ways it's easier to be Eastern Orthodox and a liberal than it is Roman Catholic and a liberal, but a few key Eastern Orthodox doctrines get stuck in my throat (particularly apostolic succession). There's no way I could ever go back to being a Protestant. That doesn't suit me at all. It's definitely something I don't believe.
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Old 04-19-2005, 06:23 PM   #139
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Quote:
Originally posted by Teta040
Hey Melon: Can you clue me in on this "Catholic apparitionists/evil Pope" thing? (And did Nostradamus predict this? LOL...NOT.)

I think this calls for a new Dan Brown novel. Something smells quite fishy here..but after 5 yrs of Dubya crap, and cover-ups, I'm used to it by now.

The only good thing is, this papacy will be short. If the much more vigorous and athletic JP2 was dead by 84, then this guy might begin to fade quickly.

On the bright side, this might be a good thing: if he turns out to be the "evil Pope", then the cardinals will better appreciate just what they lost in JP 2 (I don't think they appreicate it well enough now), and next time will be much more open to swinging back more forcefully in the JP direction. If a moderate had gooten in now, then people would accuse him of being "wishy-washy." And elect a conserbatuve down the road. Maybe we need a train wreck right now. I don't know, I certainly don't approve, but I'm a cockeyed optimist. I just finished reading "Man of the Century", and learned just what a bastard RATzinger (aptly named) is.

Fasten your seat belts folks, and ladies, if you even have THOUGHTS aobut the morning after pill, you'd better buy a years' supply from the pharmacy, because the paharmacies of America might not even carry BIRTH CONTROL now...

Pope John Paul II was a very conservative pope. Ratzinger was his right-hand man, very close to him in ideas. The differences are the personal differences between the two men, because their ideas were identical. I think it's hyperbolic to assume that they're going to ban birth control because a conservative got elected pope. I don't think the pope is going to impact U.S. pharmacy policies. A recent poll showed that 88% of American Catholics support birth control. I don't know who did that poll, or how good it is, but there's obviously alot of support for birth control in the U.S. Catholic community.
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Old 04-19-2005, 07:02 PM   #140
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New pope intervened against Kerry in US 2004 election campaign

Tue Apr 19, 6:20 PM ET

German Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, the Vatican theologian who was elected Pope Benedict XVI, intervened in the 2004 US election campaign ordering bishops to deny communion to abortion rights supporters including presidential candidate John Kerry.

In a June 2004 letter to US bishops enunciating principles of worthiness for communion recipients, Ratzinger specified that strong and open supporters of abortion should be denied the Catholic sacrament, for being guilty of a "grave sin."

He specifically mentioned "the case of a Catholic politician consistently campaigning and voting for permissive abortion and euthanasia laws," a reference widely understood to mean Democratic candidate Kerry, a Catholic who has defended abortion rights.

The letter said a priest confronted with such a person seeking communion "must refuse to distribute it."

A footnote to the letter also condemned any Catholic who votes specifically for a candidate because the candidate holds a pro-abortion position. Such a voter "would be guilty of formal cooperation in evil, and so unworthy to present himself for holy communion," the letter read.

The letter, which was revealed in the Italian magazine L'Espresso last year, was reportedly only sent to US Catholic bishops, who discussed it in their convocation in Denver, Colorado, in mid-June.

Sharply divided on the issue, the bishops decided to leave the decision on granting or denying communion to the individual priest. Kerry later received communion several times from sympathetic priests.

Nevertheless, in the November election, a majority of Catholic voters, who traditionally supported Democratic Party candidates, shifted their votes to Republican and eventual winner George W. Bush.



this guy sounds dangerous


i guess he longs for the good oid days when the church was supreme

perhaps he will serve as long as John Paul I
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Old 04-19-2005, 07:15 PM   #141
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Originally posted by AvsGirl41

Just his photo makes me uncomfortable.

Not that I can claim to be even remotely religious, but I got that creepy feeling, too, when I saw him.


I guess it's good, then, that he's 78.
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Old 04-19-2005, 08:33 PM   #142
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See, this is the thing about organized religion that makes me uncomfortable. The fact that a mortal human being has the power to cast you out of God's Light. Interesting that someone who supoorted abortion was denied communion, while the Chruch did not take the time or the trouble to intervene in their conbgregatios' lives more fully and take steps to root out pedophiles, and people who had actually committed crimes of whatever sort in the past. Can anyone tell me if murderers on Death Row are denied Communion in prison services? If we have a consistent "seamless garment of life" moral ethic, shouldn't we be serious about equating actual murderers to those who suport abortion rights, but commit no murder?


And to those who lie to the nation and lead America into a war we had no cause to start? We could just as well have implicated "certain politicans" of murder, and deny them Communion, if they were Catholic, as well..IF we have the "seamless garment of life" ethic and equate unjust war with murder, just as abortion is. If the central isue here is that abortion is murder. Right? No moral relativism here, folks! And genocide is murder, right? So if we haven't invaded Sudan in the same manner, seeking to throw out the ruler of that country, where ana ctual genocide is going on, than our political leaders are guilaty of murder. According to the "no moral relativism" rule, and denying Communion to those who support murder. Murder is murder, isn't it? Isn't it??

There is no way these days you can just stand apart from the fray, if you are not Catholic. Here's an example. Take the "conscience clause" debate swirling around the nation. This is where pharmacists are refusing to fill prescriptions for morning-after and even birth-control pills because it is against thier morals. (Funny how the Pill has been around for 40 yrs but only NOW, in 2005, are we haivng this debate. Has a lot to do with who is in power and how much control they have and who the media openly and cravenly serve, when they know here their bread is buttered.)

Now say you are an elderly woman who lives in a rural area and has medication you depends on this pharmacy for. You could care less about what you hear on the news. Say your pharmacy is the only one around for 20 miles or so. Say that either because of the state's passing the "concsience clause" (as a handful have already done and 23 or so more are hinting they might do), or the pharmacy's bowing to "popular pressure"(ie evangelical lobbying legislators, or conservative legislators buddying up with drug companies with offers of sweetheart deals for selling other, more poluar products--such as unlimited local funding for selling the newest Pfitzer drug, --and because of their bad rep, they need it now--, in exchange for not stocking any contraceptive stuff ) and not stocking birth control or the MA pill. Say, young women of childbearing age who are against the morning-after pill, maybe, but NOT birth control...or not even caring and taking birth control, as most Catholic women do these days, and which represent A LOT of that pharmacy's customers, realize their pharmacy isn't carrying a life necessity, and decide they HAVE to spend the gas money and go to another pharmacy 50 or more miles away that does. There goes a MAJOR percentage of the pharmacy's business, as of course these women will now do one-stop shopping at this new pahrmacy for all their general needs. Because of the loss of business, your pharmacy closes.

Now you are up a creek, and if your children can't drive you the longer distance to the pharmacy that is still open, or if you get ill, then you could possibly go to the hospital and die. Of course this is a theoretical scenario but it's real one as most people don't relaize the potential impact on business sich bills would have. The phrase "silent majority" that used to be bandied aobut in the 70's has never been so true as now. Boy, we are SILENT. We only complain about our selfish interests.

Chalk this up on the "opiate of the people" rant I started in another thread.

On the "antiChrist" prophecy..interesting. I don't imagine who this guy would be bosom buddies with that would fit the bill, if "antichrist" were used in its popular sense, aka a Satanic figure. Right now, there's only one truly "AntiChrist" around, and that's Bin Laden (whom we seem to have forgotten.) And since this guy seems to think any religion other than Catholicism is blashphemy, it's hard to see him being chummy with, say, Sharon or Putin. That would leave a guy whom it is very easy to imagine him being close friends with: George W. Bush. It's easy to see them becoming as personally close as a Pope could with a head of state. As the previous poster noted in the article about Kerry, it may have already happened. It's hard to imagine anybody of this stature being closer to him.

This complately plausible scenario of personal friendship might leave some conservatives on here troubled, as in no way could Dubya be an AntiChrist, in the Satanic sense of the word. I agree on that. Hitler, IMHO, WAS Nostradamus's "antiChrist" (unless he also meant Bin Laden, and was off his prophecy for 50 yrs or so...the AntiChrist seemed to be a Moslem, in his book. And that just MIGHT yet trigger WW3...)

However, if you take the term literally, and not in its traditionally prophetic sense, Dubya's actions (SO much more important than words), are very "anti Christ" (not in accordance with Christ's teachings.) Poverty, war, disease, and the afflicted are SO much more important in my book than trivial issues like who gets communion and who doesn't.
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Old 04-19-2005, 08:43 PM   #143
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Quote:
Originally posted by JessicaAnn


The only way I have remained a Catholic is to separate the politics of the Church from my faith in God.
Ditto. What the Vatican or Pope, whoever he happens to be, says has very little bearing on my faith. I'm really disappointed but not at all surprised to hear the Vatican go for an ultra conservative candidate. I'm sure my parents are thrilled though.
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Old 04-19-2005, 08:49 PM   #144
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PS. Now this sounds TOO fishy. THe US is not supposed to have the power to elect Popes, but what we DO have is MUCHO funding we could give the Vatican Bank in a time of great crisis and diminishing funds. Maybe the US did have a role in choosing this new Pope so quickly. If you help us in our time of trouble (that pesky thing called the Iraqi occupation dragging down the polls) by making a major issue of denying communion to those who support abortion, if only by inference or NOT outright denying it, thus distracting the public from the REAL issues that matter and that we have been deficient on, then we will help you become the next Pope--if that's what you want--by making a major donation to the Vatican Bank, and, who knows, even have our influence known by the oh so helpful and visible representative of the United States of America, (drumroll please), the HONORABLE pedophile himself, Cardinal Law, play a role in swinging the vote by making this known during those 9 days in between as well. We'll help you cover up your more "hard edges", too, with a continuing shower of very public and prominent Ronald-Reagan style media adoration, (as is already happening on NBC, it is like Reagan's inuaguration again), and maybe again Americans will start making up for that $700 billion in losses as a result of said scandal. So that you can basically get away with this S$&#. Hey,if it works for me, why shouldn't it work for you? While in the slums of Bogota and the hospitals of Paris, people die because their priest gives them no info on condoms.

Of course, that's the conspiracy theorist in me talking. But as I said, nothing surprises me now. Dan Brown, where are you??? I hope you are in Rome now, doing "research" for your next novel!!
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Old 04-19-2005, 09:43 PM   #145
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Quote:
Originally posted by Teta040
Hey Melon: Can you clue me in on this "Catholic apparitionists/evil Pope" thing? (And did Nostradamus predict this? LOL...NOT.)

I think this calls for a new Dan Brown novel. Something smells quite fishy here..but after 5 yrs of Dubya crap, and cover-ups, I'm used to it by now.

The only good thing is, this papacy will be short. If the much more vigorous and athletic JP2 was dead by 84, then this guy might begin to fade quickly.
I don't remember exactly where the "prophesies" originated from. There's been a slew of people who have claimed to see Mary or even Jesus, and then say that they have told them things. Like I said, not exactly credible sources, so take it as I take it: interesting and possible, but likely improbable. I read most of these in the mid-1990s and remembered them.

There's actually a prophesy that's supposed to occur between his election and his "coronation" on Sunday. I won't say what it is until after Sunday (or if it happens before).

Melon
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Old 04-19-2005, 10:15 PM   #146
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This bothered me...from a speech regarding him today


In 1986, he denounced rock music as the "vehicle of anti-religion."

I heard him denounce it again in a speech on Headline News today, though he plays classical music himself.
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Old 04-19-2005, 10:45 PM   #147
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I guess I'm riding the vehicle of anti-religion then


I'm not too happy about this pope though
But I'm not catholic
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Old 04-19-2005, 11:59 PM   #148
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Originally posted by melon


I don't remember exactly where the "prophesies" originated from. There's been a slew of people who have claimed to see Mary or even Jesus, and then say that they have told them things. Like I said, not exactly credible sources, so take it as I take it: interesting and possible, but likely improbable. I read most of these in the mid-1990s and remembered them.

There's actually a prophesy that's supposed to occur between his election and his "coronation" on Sunday. I won't say what it is until after Sunday (or if it happens before).

Melon
I'm interested in this. Will it be another thread or should I be checking back on this one?
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Old 04-20-2005, 12:09 AM   #149
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I'm interested in this. Will it be another thread or should I be checking back on this one?
Check back after Sunday, unless it happens prior to Sunday, and I'll make mention of it then. I have my reasons for not bringing it up beforehand, mainly because I don't want to look like an idiot if it doesn't happen and I don't want to even plant any ideas into anyone's head. This is the internet, after all. And it may perfectly not happen at all.

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Old 04-20-2005, 04:04 AM   #150
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Re the election of Ratty Ratfinger: will the last person to leave planet Earth please turn out the lights. Thankyou.
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