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Old 10-26-2006, 10:37 PM   #121
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar




Yeah we should have kept those blacks from voting for now everyone will want equal rights...
Those pesky Martians are gonna want all sorts of things!
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Old 10-26-2006, 10:44 PM   #122
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I personally see his viewpoints as incredibly personal attacks on people who post here. His insistence on continually and repeatedly linking homosexuality and incest is nothing short of a personal attack on Irvine and melon. I do believe he's doing it on purpose, and clearly knows the link is offensive. He'll gladly hide behind what he considers "religion" to make his point. I'd be just as intolerant of such a viewpoint if he were continually and repeatedly linking biracial marriage to incest.
Why not just say it this way from the beginning then, it makes a lot more sense and is a lot more effective than what you were saying.
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I am curious why so many people feel that homosexual marriage is considered a basic human right on one hand, but in the other hand want to deny this right to incestuous couples and polygamists.
Well, why would you want to deny that right to incestuous couples? Solely and exclusively because the Bible says so? You cannot think of a single other reason why this might be bad, truly have zero convictions on the subject other than that's what the Bible says so you're going with that, even though you personally are at a loss to imagine what any rational arguments against it might look like otherwise?
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Of course, the spiritual union is the only one in which I truly understand.
As already mentioned--why then do you not then bring up the comparisons to incest and polygamy when heterosexual marriages between atheists and agnostics are alluded to? If these are not spiritual unions (and I don't see how they could be) then logically, are they not also the work of "the Enemy" and worthy of being resisted just as loudly and vigorously?
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In my opinion, the definition of marriage of easy. It was also easy for Jesus Christ.
Well, we've gone around on this one before. Yes, in the handful of passages where Jesus refers to marriage, the hypothetical he invokes always involves a man and a woman--hardly surprising, as Jewish law would not have recognized any other type anyway and that was, after all, his audience. He doesn't, though, say anything about age at, nor personal choice in, marriage, so any "Biblical" argument against marrying a 12 year old girl to a 13 year old boy via parental arrangement (as was the norm at the time) would be illegitimate. Do you then think it's right for us to have laws deeming such things wrong today? If yes, then by what authority do we declare these things wrong?

A similar, if somewhat weaker, argument could be made concerning polygamy, IMO--which was also quite permissible under Jewish law at the time, though in practice this was never widespread as most men could not afford multiple wives, especially in a place like Galilee which was extremely poor and "backward" compared to other regions of Roman Judaea (and, again, provided the better part of Jesus' audience). It's a weaker argument to the extent that Jesus' brief references to marriage do involve hypothetical *monogamous* couples (the kind most of his audience would've belonged to--he didn't address the rich folks too often, right?) but, on the other hand, concerning that he never explicitly condemned polygamy either, it seems to me that this is more a case of taking advantage of what he didn't say (in the manner that, say, opponents of capital punishment often do) than of dutifully observing what the text never framed as a legal definition to begin with.
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Even the word "family" evokes anger and hostility...even hatred.
Is it the word itself that raises hackles, or the agenda of certain people who are fond of saturating their rhetoric with it? I have a family and a reasonably traditional one at that, but nonetheless I grit my teeth when I hear people like James Dobson jingoistically toss it around while explaining why (e.g.) women with children under 18 should not be allowed to work outside the home, just as I gritted my teeth when old-guard segregationist diehards back where I grew up pressed it into service to add a little flavor to their "Biblical" diatribes against "miscegenation."

Also, if you'd been following all his posts in here for the last couple years, Irvine has fondly mentioned his hope to have a family of his own someday numerous times. And there is nothing hostile or hateful there, to this parent's ear, when he talks about it.
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so that's why I post. To hopefully warn and educate.
In all humility and with due awareness of my own failures in this regard--if your goal is to educate than I think it would benefit you to work on your listening technique a little more.
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I don't even bother with these arguments anymore...Give it 50 years and kids will be looking at today and wondering who these bigots were, sort of like we wonder who those racist hicks were that forbid blacks from sitting at the front of the bus.
That may be, but if so, it won't happen because people stopped bothering en masse. If the thousands of people who devoted a decade or more of their lives to the Civil Rights Movement had taken the attitude that they were going to give up on peaceful resistance and talking back, and maybe just wait for the impact of increasingly positive and diversifed media images of blacks to take effect, then not only would things have proceeded a whole lot slower, but also much of the moral urgency that gave its achievements a lasting impact on the American psyche would've been lost.
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Old 10-26-2006, 11:08 PM   #123
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Slavery, inter-racial marriage, women's voting rights, civil rights... social conservatives have been on the wrong side of them all.
How do you define social conservatives?
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Old 10-26-2006, 11:13 PM   #124
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How do you define social conservatives?
How does society define them? I'm not sure why you're asking.
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Old 10-26-2006, 11:15 PM   #125
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar

I find your "morals" to be extremely immoral, and social conservatives have always been on the side of moral chaos. History is on my side with that one.
Who was on the side of moral chaos during the "if it feels good, do it" philosophy of sexual revolution, that wonderful thing that has had so many devestating and chaotic effects on our society? Not the social conservatives.

And who is on the side of moral chaos when it comes to killing babies in the womb? Not social conservatives.
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Old 10-26-2006, 11:18 PM   #126
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Slavery, inter-racial marriage, women's voting rights, civil rights... social conservatives have been on the wrong side of them all.
BVS, maybe you need to do a little bit more study on the abolitionists; if you do, you'll find that Christian organizations and churches were heavily involved in the abolition of slavery. These were men and women with conservative moral values.
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Old 10-26-2006, 11:19 PM   #127
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


Who was on the side of moral chaos during the "if it feels good, do it" philosophy of sexual revolution, that wonderful thing that has had so many devestating and chaotic effects on our society? Not the social conservatives.

Was there any legislation involved with this? No. My examples all involved legislation, in keeping with the context of the discussion.
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Old 10-26-2006, 11:23 PM   #128
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BVS, maybe you need to do a little bit more study on the abolitionists; if you do, you'll find that Christian organizations and churches were heavily involved in the abolition of slavery. These were men and women with conservative moral values.
Church has not always equaled conservative, maybe you should do a little more studying...
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Old 10-26-2006, 11:24 PM   #129
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


BVS, maybe you need to do a little bit more study on the abolitionists; if you do, you'll find that Christian organizations and churches were heavily involved in the abolition of slavery. These were men and women with conservative moral values.
And they were also heavily involved in the Biblical defense of slavery.
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Old 10-26-2006, 11:25 PM   #130
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Why not just say it this way from the beginning then, it makes a lot more sense and is a lot more effective than what you were saying.
Because he pisses me off.
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Old 10-26-2006, 11:27 PM   #131
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You are fooling yourself if you think some group; be it polygamists, clones, Martians, obelisk worshipers or maybe grown men who want to wear diapers to work--who knows what -
Yep. I can so see how gays amd lesbians who want to commit to each other fit right in with these folks.

Yep. It's so crystal clear.

Oh, and I thought you were "sitting this one out."
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Old 10-26-2006, 11:38 PM   #132
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That may be, but if so, it won't happen because people stopped bothering en masse.
I meant here at FYM.

In my real life incarnation, I would fight as much as I can for full marriage rights.

However, here, I think some people are beyond reaching, frankly. It's not worth either my effort or my aggravation when we have people invoking extraterrestrials in comparison to gay men and women. That's a lost cause in my eyes because there's a certain population you'll never, ever reach.
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Old 10-26-2006, 11:39 PM   #133
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Originally posted by anitram


Those pesky Martians are gonna want all sorts of things!
There will be Martians someday by the way.

But otherwise you're right, how silly of me to think society will continue to evolve. And how silly to speculate that the "enlightened" values of today's children might, someday in the future, be challenged as outdated or even "bigoted."
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Old 10-26-2006, 11:40 PM   #134
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But otherwise you're right, how silly of me to think society will continue to evolve.
Wait, there's EVOLUTION?

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Old 10-26-2006, 11:49 PM   #135
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And how silly to speculate that the "enlightened" values of today's children might, someday in the future, be challenged as outdated or even "bigoted."
Indeed. Who knew that the folks who spit on the black schoolgirls 50 years ago would be considered bigots today?
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