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Old 10-26-2006, 07:54 PM   #76
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Originally posted by AEON
By defnition, ALL viewpoints are exlusionary, even yours.

...

Basically, you are suggesting I follow your viewpoint. Once I do so, I am conceding that my viewpoint is false. I can't say I'm ready to surrender my moral beliefs to the latest secular trends.
No. You're merely conceding that your viewpoint doesn't need to be enforced by the government. After all, the Republican Party is supposed to be the party of smaller government?

I rather dislike abortion, but I don't demand that the government ban it. I would rather expend my effort telling people why I personally dislike it and let people make their own decisions from there. In the end, all decisions are between "us and our God." I do not appreciate having a middleman such as yourself thrust upon me.

That's what I meant about my worldview being inclusionary. It admits that there are different POVs out there, but that the role of government should be hands off.

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Old 10-26-2006, 07:55 PM   #77
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Irvine I have a question. I support it in a Civil Union Sense does the Church, Synogogs, Buhhdist Temples, Mosque have a right to ban it or are the biggoted for that? Would you consider me a Biggot for only supporting Civil Unions??

churches and synogogs do not have to recognize anything they do not want to recognize.

a civil union exists in the eyes of the law only. it is up to each individual church to recognize such a union as a marriage or not.

some churches "marry" gay people -- they have no legal rights, but they are married in the eyes of their particular church.
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Old 10-26-2006, 07:55 PM   #78
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Originally posted by Irvine511

most support Civil Unions, and in private, probably support Marriage, but they need to win elections.
And don't forget another staunch supporter of civil unions, Bill O'Reilly
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Old 10-26-2006, 07:56 PM   #79
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Originally posted by Irvine511



churches and synogogs do not have to recognize anything they do not want to recognize.

a civil union exists in the eyes of the law only. it is up to each individual church to recognize such a union as a marriage or not.

some churches "marry" gay people -- they have no legal rights, but they are married in the eyes of their particular church.
What about the last part.
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Old 10-26-2006, 07:56 PM   #80
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And the Enemy is so skillful as to mislead you as to what is destroying the American family.

It's not homosexuals. I find it absolutely laughable to believe that. Homosexuals don't compel heterosexual couples to commit adultery. To fight. To get divorced. Homosexuals have nothing to do with any of that.

What I do think has hurt it is the politicization of religion. You've insisted on making moral issues political issues, and, as such, religion is going down the same path as medieval Europe: one of complete disillusionment with religion, as it has become intertwined with the polarization that is politics.

[/B]
isn't there something about separation of church & state?

< should probably just stay out of this and just read the responses)
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Old 10-26-2006, 08:01 PM   #81
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Originally posted by melon


And the Enemy is so skillful as to mislead you as to what is destroying the American family.

It's not homosexuals. I find it absolutely laughable to believe that. Homosexuals don't compel heterosexual couples to commit adultery. To fight. To get divorced. Homosexuals have nothing to do with any of that.

What I do think has hurt it is the politicization of religion. You've insisted on making moral issues political issues, and, as such, religion is going down the same path as medieval Europe: one of complete disillusionment with religion, as it has become intertwined with the polarization that is politics.

What also hurts is how the average American family is under a lot more economic stress than in generations past. For the last 30 years, the path to a well-paying job is no longer virtually assured. Who has time to work on a marriage, when you need both spouses working their fool asses off all the time? Who has the money to have a family when you're constantly insecure about your job?

You want to help the American family? Stop scapegoating unpopular minorities, because all it does is deflect from the real problems. Indeed, go to Japan. Very conservative society. Very expensive and high pressure society. Negative population growth. Of course, I'd expect nothing less than scapegoating from the Enemy.

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Agreed - the family is being attacked on many fronts. The redefinition of the family is one such attack. But it is only one. I agree that financial stress, infidility, pornography, addictions...etc all play a part in destroying families. the Enemy has many weapons.
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Old 10-26-2006, 08:01 PM   #82
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Originally posted by melon


You don't need to follow it up with condescending arrogance.

The problem is that liberal/conservative debates are often fought on completely different standards. Liberals are expected to cite large bodies of scientific literature, etc., whereas conservatives merely have to say that their religious beliefs compel them to be a raving bigot. "How dare you say bad things about my God-granted bigotry!"

I can certainly see why it drives many liberals to maddening frustration, particularly when these same arguments continue to appear, no matter how many times we argue to the contrary.

But I've been doing it for six years here now. I'm quite prepared for the assault.

Melon
I don't wish to debate the issue as I'm willing to live with any legislated (not court mandated) outcome. But, it is equally maddening, as a conservative, to see our every argument or point vacuously labeled as "bigoted" or "homophobic" in lieu of an intellectual or heartfelt response.

And yes Melon, you do come to the FYM podium prepared. As I said, some reward your time and effort, others not.
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Old 10-26-2006, 08:03 PM   #83
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What about the last part.

that is their choice. there are churches in DC and northern VA that marry gay people. it's all ceremony, but it's nice.
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Old 10-26-2006, 08:04 PM   #84
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AEON, i am not your enemy.



i'm really not.

i love, just like you do.
Irvine, I know that you are not the Enemy. I was referring to Satan.


I do think you are genuine, loving man. At least that is how your posts come across.

We have our disagreements, but none of that makes me think less of you.

My wife disagrees with me all of the time - and I still love her with all my heart!
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Old 10-26-2006, 08:06 PM   #85
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Originally posted by INDY500
to see our every argument or point vacuously labeled as "bigoted" or "homophobic" in lieu of an intellectual or heartfelt response.
You weren't addressing me, I might indeed be on your ignore list, but please explain to me how denying to others what you demand for yourself isn't bigoted?
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Old 10-26-2006, 08:07 PM   #86
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Originally posted by Lila64


isn't there something about separation of church & state?

< should probably just stay out of this and just read the responses)
Not in the US Constitution. Nowhere is the "seperation between church and state" mentioned in the Constitution.
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Old 10-26-2006, 08:07 PM   #87
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Irvine, I know that you are not the Enemy. I was referring to Satan.


do you think homosexuality is the work of Satan?

and do you realize, though, that talking about "The Enemy" to the family and then including homosexuality and gay marriage is incredibly offensive to me?

to view me as a threat? to view my relationship as a threat? to think that i'm somehow working to undo the foundations of society? to think that i am a threat to heterosexual relationships when i was a product of one?
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Old 10-26-2006, 08:08 PM   #88
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that is their choice. there are churches in DC and northern VA that marry gay people. it's all ceremony, but it's nice.
I meant the Biggotry part. Would you consider me a biggot if I only chose for civil unions only? And Just because a person does not agree with it, but yet can be friends does that make a person a Biggot?
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Old 10-26-2006, 08:08 PM   #89
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Not in the US Constitution. Nowhere is the "seperation between church and state" mentioned in the Constitution.


the establishment clause.

Jefferson was a big fan of the separation of church and state as well.
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Old 10-26-2006, 08:10 PM   #90
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Originally posted by Justin24


I meant the Biggotry part. Would you consider me a biggot if I only chose for civil unions only? And Just because a person does not agree with it, but yet can be friends does that make a person a Biggot?


i would ask why there's such a problem with using the word "marriage." in VT, CT, and now NJ, and soon probalby in CA and MD, we will have civil unions that are the same thing as marriage, but with a different name.

why do we get upset when we use the word marriage?





i can't believe i'm still at work
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