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Old 10-31-2006, 11:00 AM   #466
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3. Now I eagerly await a decent refutation of yolland's literate and thougtful post; one which no one can complain was a one-liner or full of questions.
Still waiting.
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Old 10-31-2006, 12:42 PM   #467
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But God is not a person
Well we obviously disagree on this point.

For me, First Corinthians 6:9-20 sums up the Christian perspective on this debate most accurately:

Don't you realize that this is not the way to live? Unjust people who don't care about God will not be joining in his kingdom. Those who use and abuse each other, use and abuse sex, use and abuse the earth and everything in it, don't qualify as citizens in God's kingdom. A number of you know from experience what I'm talking about, for not so long ago you were on that list. Since then, you've been cleaned up and given a fresh start by Jesus, our Master, our Messiah, and by our God present in us, the Spirit.

Just because something is technically legal doesn't mean that it's spiritually appropriate. If I went around doing whatever I thought I could get by with, I'd be a slave to my whims.

You know the old saying, "First you eat to live, and then you live to eat"? Well, it may be true that the body is only a temporary thing, but that's no excuse for stuffing your body with food, or indulging it with sex. Since the Master honors you with a body, honor him with your body!

God honored the Master's body by raising it from the grave. He'll treat yours with the same resurrection power. Until that time, remember that your bodies are created with the same dignity as the Master's body. You wouldn't take the Master's body off to a whorehouse, would you? I should hope not.

There's more to sex than mere skin on skin. Sex is as much spiritual mystery as physical fact. As written in Scripture, "The two become one." Since we want to become spiritually one with the Master, we must not pursue the kind of sex that avoids commitment and intimacy, leaving us more lonely than ever—the kind of sex that can never "become one." There is a sense in which sexual sins are different from all others. In sexual sin we violate the sacredness of our own bodies, these bodies that were made for God-given and God-modeled love, for "becoming one" with another. Or didn't you realize that your body is a sacred place, the place of the Holy Spirit? Don't you see that you can't live however you please, squandering what God paid such a high price for? The physical part of you is not some piece of property belonging to the spiritual part of you. God owns the whole works. So let people see God in and through your body.
(The Message)
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Old 10-31-2006, 01:13 PM   #468
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Beyond Same-Sex Marriage: A New Strategic Vision For All Our Families and Relationships

Executive Summary:

The time has come to reframe the narrow terms of the marriage debate in the United States. Conservatives are seeking to enshrine discrimination in the U.S. Constitution through the Federal Marriage Amendment. But their opposition to same-sex marriage is only one part of a broader pro-marriage, “family values” agenda that includes abstinence-only sex education, stringent divorce laws, coercive marriage promotion policies directed toward women on welfare, and attacks on reproductive freedom. Moreover, a thirty-year political assault on the social safety net has left households with more burdens and constraints and fewer resources.

Meanwhile, the LGBT movement has recently focused on marriage equality as a stand-alone issue. While this strategy may secure rights and benefits for some LGBT families, it has left us isolated and vulnerable to a virulent backlash. We must respond to the full scope of the conservative marriage agenda by building alliances across issues and constituencies. Our strategies must be visionary, creative, and practical to counter the right's powerful and effective use of marriage as a “wedge” issue that pits one group against another. The struggle for marriage rights should be part of a larger effort to strengthen the stability and security of diverse households and families. To that end, we advocate:

Ø Legal recognition for a wide range of relationships, households and families – regardless of kinship or conjugal status.

Ø Access for all, regardless of marital or citizenship status, to vital government support programs including but not limited to health care, housing, Social Security and pension plans, disaster recovery assistance, unemployment insurance and welfare assistance.

Ø Separation of church and state in all matters, including regulation and recognition of relationships, households and families.

Ø Freedom from state regulation of our sexual lives and gender choices, identities and expression.

Marriage is not the only worthy form of family or relationship, and it should not be legally and economically privileged above all others. A majority of people – whatever their sexual and gender identities – do not live in traditional nuclear families. They stand to gain from alternative forms of household recognition beyond one-size-fits-all marriage. For example:

· Single parent households

· Senior citizens living together and serving as each other’s caregivers (think Golden Girls)

· Blended and extended families

· Children being raised in multiple households or by unmarried parents

· Adult children living with and caring for their parents

· Senior citizens who are the primary caregivers to their grandchildren or other relatives

· Close friends or siblings living in non-conjugal relationships and serving as each other’s primary support and caregivers

· Households in which there is more than one conjugal partner

· Care-giving relationships that provide support to those living with extended illness such as HIV/AIDS.

The current debate over marriage, same-sex and otherwise, ignores the needs and desires of so many in a nation where household diversity is the demographic norm. We seek to reframe this debate. Our call speaks to the widespread hunger for authentic and just community in ways that are both pragmatic and visionary. It follows in the best tradition of the progressive LGBT movement, which invented alternative legal statuses such as domestic partnership and reciprocal beneficiary. We seek to build on these historic accomplishments by continuing to diversify and democratize partnership and household recognition. We advocate the expansion of existing legal statuses, social services and benefits to support the needs of all our households.

We call on colleagues working in various social justice movements and campaigns to read the full-text of our statement “Beyond Same-Sex Marriage: A New Strategic Vision,” and to join us in our call for government support of all our households.
Beyond Same-Sex Marriage, well, that's pretty clear.
Here's the site http://beyondmarriage.org/

Signatories on board with recognition of “committed, loving households in which there is more than one conjugal partner.”
http://beyondmarriage.org/signatories.html

Today's National Review article here
http://article.nationalreview.com/?q...ZlMGMyNmUzZWE=

Opinions, one line or otherwise.
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Old 10-31-2006, 01:35 PM   #469
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Originally posted by martha
3. Now I eagerly await a decent refutation of yolland's literate and thougtful post; one which no one can complain was a one-liner or full of questions.
Still waiting.
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Old 10-31-2006, 01:44 PM   #470
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Kurtz wrote an interesting article about the Netherlands a couple years ago. I'm not sure what to think about the article, but the ramifications for Dutch society make for an interesting read.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1140886/posts
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Old 10-31-2006, 01:58 PM   #471
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Quote:
Originally posted by AEON


Well we obviously disagree on this point.
Do you believe God is a person now?

Quote:
Originally posted by AEON


For me, First Corinthians 6:9-20 sums up the Christian perspective on this debate most accurately:

Don't you realize that this is not the way to live? Unjust people who don't care about God will not be joining in his kingdom. Those who use and abuse each other, use and abuse sex, use and abuse the earth and everything in it, don't qualify as citizens in God's kingdom. A number of you know from experience what I'm talking about, for not so long ago you were on that list. Since then, you've been cleaned up and given a fresh start by Jesus, our Master, our Messiah, and by our God present in us, the Spirit.

Just because something is technically legal doesn't mean that it's spiritually appropriate. If I went around doing whatever I thought I could get by with, I'd be a slave to my whims.

You know the old saying, "First you eat to live, and then you live to eat"? Well, it may be true that the body is only a temporary thing, but that's no excuse for stuffing your body with food, or indulging it with sex. Since the Master honors you with a body, honor him with your body!

God honored the Master's body by raising it from the grave. He'll treat yours with the same resurrection power. Until that time, remember that your bodies are created with the same dignity as the Master's body. You wouldn't take the Master's body off to a whorehouse, would you? I should hope not.

There's more to sex than mere skin on skin. Sex is as much spiritual mystery as physical fact. As written in Scripture, "The two become one." Since we want to become spiritually one with the Master, we must not pursue the kind of sex that avoids commitment and intimacy, leaving us more lonely than ever—the kind of sex that can never "become one." There is a sense in which sexual sins are different from all others. In sexual sin we violate the sacredness of our own bodies, these bodies that were made for God-given and God-modeled love, for "becoming one" with another. Or didn't you realize that your body is a sacred place, the place of the Holy Spirit? Don't you see that you can't live however you please, squandering what God paid such a high price for? The physical part of you is not some piece of property belonging to the spiritual part of you. God owns the whole works. So let people see God in and through your body.
(The Message)
Based on this, would you support laws against obesity, sex before marriage, or remarriage after divorce?

You should if you wanted to be consistent. This is where CCs come off as hypocrites. They can fully support laws that don't effect them, but the ones that would effect them they convienently sweep under the rug.
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Old 10-31-2006, 02:02 PM   #472
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Originally posted by nathan1977
Kurtz wrote an interesting article about the Netherlands a couple years ago. I'm not sure what to think about the article, but the ramifications for Dutch society make for an interesting read.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1140886/posts
Very interesting, thanx.
Quote:
If marriage is decoupled from procreation, asked Van der Staaij, how can other radical innovations be avoided..Superficially, legalizing same-sex marriage seems to be the opposite of abolishing marriage. Yet by stretching the notion of marriage to embrace a complex array of alternative forms, one would accomplish the legal abolition of marriage by other means.
Quote:
Spend a decade telling people that marriage is not about parenthood and they just might begin to believe you. Make relationship equality a rallying cry, and people might decide that all forms of relationship are equal--especially young people, of family-forming age
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Old 10-31-2006, 02:02 PM   #473
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Quote:
Originally posted by nathan1977
Kurtz wrote an interesting article about the Netherlands a couple years ago. I'm not sure what to think about the article, but the ramifications for Dutch society make for an interesting read.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1140886/posts
That's some pretty piss poor "science", but I don't expect anything different from the freerepublic.com.
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Old 10-31-2006, 02:15 PM   #474
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


That's some pretty piss poor "science", but I don't expect anything different from the freerepublic.com.
"Piss poor science" should be pretty easy to refute.
Go for it.
Give us some charts, quotes and related data and then summarize what it all means in your own words.
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Old 10-31-2006, 02:28 PM   #475
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"Piss poor science" should be pretty easy to refute.
Go for it.
Give us some charts, quotes and related data and then summarize what it all means in your own words.
It doesn't need charts.

The rate started raising a good 5 or 6 years before gay marriage was even legalized, it never takes in effect marriages without children, population rate, or the rise in Europe overall...

Did you even read it?
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Old 10-31-2006, 03:01 PM   #476
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


It doesn't need charts.

The rate started raising a good 5 or 6 years before gay marriage was even legalized, it never takes in effect marriages without children, population rate, or the rise in Europe overall...

Did you even read it?
Well, out-of-wedlock births have skyrocketed in the United States without same-sex marriage as well. That same-sex marriage cause futher escalation is what's of interest.
See if you can recognize the pattern.
Quote:
The cultural revolution of the 1960s weakened the churches. Once faith became too fragile to sustain the social order, the pillars collapsed.
Yep, we had that. We just didn't secularize to the extent of the Dutch however. (much to the displeasure of the far left)
Quote:
cohabitation acquired virtually equal status with marriage under Dutch law in the 1980s
Well, we're living with the failed policies of the welfare state and we, as a country, had the Murphy Brown debate in the early 90's as I've mentioned.
Quote:
One thing that happened was the push for same-sex marriage. It began in earnest in the Netherlands in 1989. After several attempts to legalize gay marriage through the courts failed in 1990, advocates launched a campaign of cultural-political activism. They set up symbolic marriage registries in sympathetic cities and towns (although the marriages had no legal force), and the largely sympathetic news and entertainment media chimed in.
Here's were we are as a country now. Mayors defying the law to issue same-sex marriages licenses, challenges in court to existing statutes and a supportive popular culture.

Does the graph make more sense now?
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Old 10-31-2006, 03:12 PM   #477
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Does the graph make more sense now?
I'm not an idiot. The graph is fairly straight forward, it just doesn't show causation.

Right now out of wedlock births are on the rise in the US, so are the construction of Walmarts, can I say one leads to the other?
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Old 10-31-2006, 03:26 PM   #478
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Originally posted by martha
3. Now I eagerly await a decent refutation of yolland's literate and thougtful post; one which no one can complain was a one-liner or full of questions.
Jeepers. This is the fourth time I've asked politely and no one's done it yet.

Could it be that people have no answer to what yolland posted?
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Old 10-31-2006, 03:56 PM   #479
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Originally posted by martha


Jeepers. This is the fourth time I've asked politely and no one's done it yet.

Could it be that people have no answer to what yolland posted?
I responded to it. Ultimately, Yolland and I disagree on how we interpret and apply various scriptures related to the subject.

I respect Yolland’s conclusion. I also respect Maycocksean’s conclusion. I think the passage I quoted summarizes my view on the subject.
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Old 10-31-2006, 03:58 PM   #480
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


I'm not an idiot. The graph is fairly straight forward, it just doesn't show causation.

Right now out of wedlock births are on the rise in the US, so are the construction of Walmarts, can I say one leads to the other?
Actually, I think there probably is a correlation.
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