New Jersey embraces civil rights for all couples - Page 23 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 10-30-2006, 06:23 PM   #331
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
80sU2isBest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 4,970
Local Time: 11:15 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511




but how i was designed by God to love isn't how i'm broken.
But that is really the crux of the whole debate, isn't it?

Some people do not accept that you were born gay.
Some people do accept it.
__________________

__________________
80sU2isBest is offline  
Old 10-30-2006, 06:24 PM   #332
Blue Crack Addict
 
MrsSpringsteen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 24,984
Local Time: 11:15 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by AEON

I don't know.
What do you mean by that? I'm honestly not trying to give you a hard time, I just don't know exactly what you mean by that.

And heterosexual sinning in marriage is blatantly obvious to me- it's obvious to any and all who have suffered the effects of it in whatever way. Just for starters.
__________________

__________________
MrsSpringsteen is offline  
Old 10-30-2006, 06:30 PM   #333
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,495
Local Time: 11:15 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


But that is really the crux of the whole debate, isn't it?

Some people do not accept that you were born gay.
Some people do accept it.


and those that don't accept it, just how would they know unless they themselves were gay? and even then, how could they speak for other gay people?

you are right, that is the crux of the debate. and that is why it is so important to anti-gay groups to cling onto anyone who says that they were able to "change" their sexual orientation, for that would show that it is not immutable, and therefore a "choice."
__________________
Irvine511 is online now  
Old 10-30-2006, 06:31 PM   #334
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,687
Local Time: 10:15 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by AEON


I don't know.
I appreciate the honesty.

But this is exactly why and where your stance, and everyone on your side, loses all credibility and when it comes down to it has not a leg to stand on. This is exactly why so many on the opposing side says it honestly comes down to bigotry, you leave the door wide open for them.
__________________
BVS is online now  
Old 10-30-2006, 06:40 PM   #335
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
redhotswami's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Waiting for this madness to end.
Posts: 5,846
Local Time: 11:15 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


But that is really the crux of the whole debate, isn't it?

Some people do not accept that you were born gay.
Some people do accept it.
You're absolutely right! I really think that is what it all boils down to.

Personally though, I'm not too comfortable with telling someone that he/she is not who he/she says that he/she is. I don't think I phrased that correctly, but the words escape me at the moment. Let me use an example:

I know myself better than anyone else. I know that I am heterosexual. I know I was born this way. However if somebody came up to me and said that I was NOT born heterosexual, I'd be really confused, because I know who I am.

But I'd also like to mention the psychological researchers. Now, sorry to throw my occupation experience into the discussion, but I have read LOADS of research on sexual identity development, with traditional aged undergraduate college students as the sample. EVERYTHING I have found says that sexual orientation is exactly what it says, ORIENTATION. People are born that way, it is not a choice. The APA has even stated so, and there are theories backing this up.
__________________
redhotswami is offline  
Old 10-30-2006, 06:41 PM   #336
She's the One
 
martha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Orange County and all over the goddamn place
Posts: 42,337
Local Time: 08:15 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by redhotswami
The APA has even stated so, and there are theories backing this up.
Along with brain research.
__________________
martha is offline  
Old 10-30-2006, 06:41 PM   #337
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,495
Local Time: 11:15 AM
but doesn't it come down to this: how can anal sex be holy?

i'm serious.

all these religious objections seem to be to be elaborate defenses of the "ick" factor that kicks in for many heterosexuals whenever two men kiss each other. that it's gross. unseamly. an abomination. sinful. and it might seem so to some heterosexuals. and that's fine. there are heterosexual acts that i find unseamly. and gross. but i'd never, then, make the leap to "abomination" and/or "sinful."

can we get to the point where accept this:



as no more, and no less, "icky" or "sinful" as this:





(and let's put aside the fact that men and women have anal sex)
__________________
Irvine511 is online now  
Old 10-30-2006, 06:50 PM   #338
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,687
Local Time: 10:15 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by AEON

Since I believe homosexual behavior a sin
What's homosexual "behavior"?
__________________
BVS is online now  
Old 10-30-2006, 06:55 PM   #339
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
AEON's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: California
Posts: 4,052
Local Time: 09:15 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


I appreciate the honesty.

But this is exactly why and where your stance, and everyone on your side, loses all credibility and when it comes down to it has not a leg to stand on. This is exactly why so many on the opposing side says it honestly comes down to bigotry, you leave the door wide open for them.
When I say "I don't know" I am actually saying that I can't offer an adequate answer. I posted in another thread about God’s wisdom is not always the same as our wisdom. I’ve gone most of my life not trusting God, and I can assure, doing that didn’t work out too well for me.

We will not always know all of the reasons for why God forbids certain things and allows others. Sometimes it’s obvious, other times—it’s not so obvious. Philosophies, psychology, sociology all have limits; and they are certainly limited in the understanding between God and His creation.
Many here have made some compelling arguments. But as strong as they are, none of them have convinced me not to trust what I think God has said on the issue.

The latest “evidence” regarding the causes of homosexuality the world musters up seems to change faster than Super Bowl champions. Ultimately, it doesn’t even matter if someone is born gay or not – it is the behavior that is the sin (according the Bible; and I concur). There is another thread where we all go into quite a bit, probably no need to travel that road again. Some interpret the Bible’s stance against homosexuality different than conservative Christians – and we can discuss that again if we must.
__________________
AEON is offline  
Old 10-30-2006, 06:56 PM   #340
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
AEON's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: California
Posts: 4,052
Local Time: 09:15 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511




and those that don't accept it, just how would they know unless they themselves were gay? and even then, how could they speak for other gay people?

you are right, that is the crux of the debate. and that is why it is so important to anti-gay groups to cling onto anyone who says that they were able to "change" their sexual orientation, for that would show that it is not immutable, and therefore a "choice."

Irvine, you seem to agree that you are broken, but being gay is not part of the broken part. My question to you then is – how do you know this? I mean, until Christ was within my heart, there was a ton of things about myself that were suddenly apparent. It was not until the light of Christ shined and exposed my darkest thoughts did I even know that many of them existed. It is part of the process. Does that make sense? Even if you don’t agree?
__________________
AEON is offline  
Old 10-30-2006, 07:01 PM   #341
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The American Resistance
Posts: 4,754
Local Time: 10:15 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511


maybe you could help out your conservative Christian brothers?

i do feel for AEON, as he's obviously taking an upopular stance, and he is doing his best to defend it.
I think AEON knows, as I do, that the views expressed in this forum do not represent the views of the majority of Americans. Or even close to it for that matter.

Eight states have ballot initiatives next week which will define marriage as between one man and one woman and outlaw marriage between same-sex couples.

My guess is they all will pass.
__________________
INDY500 is offline  
Old 10-30-2006, 07:01 PM   #342
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,687
Local Time: 10:15 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by AEON


When I say "I don't know" I am actually saying that I can't offer an adequate answer. I posted in another thread about God’s wisdom is not always the same as our wisdom. I’ve gone most of my life not trusting God, and I can assure, doing that didn’t work out too well for me.

We will not always know all of the reasons for why God forbids certain things and allows others. Sometimes it’s obvious, other times—it’s not so obvious. Philosophies, psychology, sociology all have limits; and they are certainly limited in the understanding between God and His creation.
Many here have made some compelling arguments. But as strong as they are, none of them have convinced me not to trust what I think God has said on the issue.
But name one other "sin" that doesn't make sense? Every other commandment can be given a pretty logical reason, why is this the only one you can't explain?


Quote:
Originally posted by AEON
Ultimately, it doesn’t even matter if someone is born gay or not – it is the behavior that is the sin (according the Bible; and I concur).
But here you are with the "behavior" again, what is homosexual "behavior"? I don't ever remember any scripture talking about behavior.
__________________
BVS is online now  
Old 10-30-2006, 07:03 PM   #343
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,687
Local Time: 10:15 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by INDY500


I think AEON knows, as I do, that the views expressed in this forum do not represent the views of the majority of Americans. Or even close to it for that matter.

Eight states have ballot initiatives next week which will define marriage as between one man and one woman and outlaw marriage between same-sex couples.

My guess is they all will pass.
Why is it that status quo and mob rule hold so much power for you, it's obvious both have been completely wrong so many times in the past?
__________________
BVS is online now  
Old 10-30-2006, 07:06 PM   #344
She's the One
 
martha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Orange County and all over the goddamn place
Posts: 42,337
Local Time: 08:15 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by INDY500


I think AEON knows, as I do, that the views expressed in this forum do not represent the views of the majority of Americans. Or even close to it for that matter.

Eight states have ballot initiatives next week which will define marriage as between one man and one woman and outlaw marriage between same-sex couples.

My guess is they all will pass.
Yep. Separate but equal was accepted by a majority of Americans until 1956 (and even then for a long time after). It did take some Supreme Court "activism" to eleminate it from our education system. I look forward to that happening again.

Or, maybe young people will finally start voting and let their voices count.
__________________
martha is offline  
Old 10-30-2006, 07:09 PM   #345
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,495
Local Time: 11:15 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by AEON

The latest “evidence” regarding the causes of homosexuality the world musters up seems to change faster than Super Bowl champions.


homosexuality was removed from the APA list of disorders since the early 1970s and has remained off the list ever since.
__________________

__________________
Irvine511 is online now  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:15 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com