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Old 10-30-2006, 05:21 PM   #316
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
So now being gay is a disease or defect? Wow...
I think my point was we are all diseased an defected at our core.
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Old 10-30-2006, 05:32 PM   #317
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I think my point was we are all diseased an defected at our core.
Well then you may want to be careful of your analogies, because your response was to a specific question asked by Irvine...
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Old 10-30-2006, 05:36 PM   #318
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So logically you have to say that straight marriage is an endorsement of hetero behavior. How could you not? Straight marriage is full of sinful behavior- straight people sin in their marriages all the time. They cheat, they abuse, they neglect-and on and on and on. So unless you will admit that you insist that straight marriage is inherently "sinless" regardless of the behavior of the man and woman, just by virtue that it is between a man and a woman (which is a belief not rooted in logic and reason but in the religious beliefs of SOME religious people), how could you endorse straight marriage? Granted we have never voted on straight marriage, but that is a logical question based upon what you have said here.


In my view, marriage is God's endorsement of the spiritual/physical union between a man and a woman. When Adam was alone, God created Eve because it was “not good for man to be alone.” We are designed for such relationships.

We marry in the eyes of God, and then we ask for God’s strength to protect and preserve the marriage. The sex within the boundary of this marriage is meant to pleasing, beautiful, and holy.

Most marriages fail when one or both of the parties continues to place his/her own needs before the needs of the other…and God.
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Old 10-30-2006, 05:41 PM   #319
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Originally posted by AEON




In my view, marriage is God's endorsement of the spiritual/physical union between a man and a woman. When Adam was alone, he created Eve because it was “not good for man to be alone.”

We marry in the eyes of God, and then we ask for God’s strength to protect and preserve the marriage. The sex within the boundary of this marriage is meant to pleasing, beautiful, and holy.

Most marriages fail when one or both of the parties continues to place his/her own needs before the needs of the other…and God.
Sorry, I don't see what any of that has to do with what I asked you. Do you believe that straight marriage is inherently sinless, even though men and women sin in marriage?
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Old 10-30-2006, 05:46 PM   #320
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My larger point, as I mentioned earlier, is that everyone votes their morality. We impose our moral views on each other in every action we perform, whether we intend to or not.
A sweeping generalization worthy of me, isn't it.



I have a serious moral problem with fertility treatments and in-vitro treatments. Seriously. I'm not making this up to make a point. My moral objection is twofold: 1. There are too many people already here on the planet; we don't need to indulge the child-bearing whims of naturally infertile people.
2. Religiously, I believe you play the cards you're dealt. Infertility is a part of the karma you work through this lifetime. To try to go around it is asking for trouble down the longer road.


That said I would NEVER, EVER vote to ban any kind of infertility treatments. EVER. It's none of my business how people choose to deal with that condition, unless actual physical harm comes to a third party.

So, according to your model of morality, voting, business-minding, and Saving the Heathen Masses, I'm perfectly within my moral rights to carry on with my objections by voting, quoting appropriate religious sources as a source of law, and generally sticking my nose into other people's business when it doesn't concern me in the least?
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Old 10-30-2006, 05:53 PM   #321
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Old 10-30-2006, 05:53 PM   #322
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Originally posted by MrsSpringsteen


Sorry, I don't see what any of that has to do with what I asked you. Do you believe that straight marriage is inherently sinless, even though men and women sin in marriage?
I think I did answer it. Marriage is the endorsement of the union between a man and a woman, the two becoming one. Each will sin and make mistakes after marriage, just as they did before marriage. So?

Perhaps I don’t understand the question: “Do you believe that straight marriage is inherently sinless, even though men and women sin in marriage?”

If you are asking is the “idea” of marriage inherently sinless I would say “yes” – because this is a plan ordained by God. However, if you are asking if marriage makes us sinless, I would answer an emphatic “no!”
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Old 10-30-2006, 06:03 PM   #323
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So in other words you can always endorse straight marriage because the idea of it is sinless because it is ordained by God-even though it is often full of sin. But you could never endorse gay marriage because it is inherently automatically sinful even if the two people involved never cheated on each other, never abused each other, never mistreated each other (granted the mistreatment issue is a stretch for ANY couple, people mistreat those they love all the time-but just for hypothetical purposes).

Of course marriage doesn't make us sinless- but if you're straight, according to your logic, your sin in marriage is somehow just more acceptable.
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Old 10-30-2006, 06:08 PM   #324
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The way I see it....

You cannot point at a heterosexual couple and say they are sinning.....

But you can point at a gay couple and say...ooohh...they are sinning......

See, heterosexual sinning is not so blatently obvious, therefore it does not matter, because I cannot point to it and say...look there is sin.
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Old 10-30-2006, 06:12 PM   #325
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because I cannot point to it and say...look there is sin.
AEON may be able to...
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Old 10-30-2006, 06:13 PM   #326
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Irvine, I refer back to the idea that we are all cracked and weak and depend on God for healing. One of my favorite stories in the Bible is where Jesus heals a blind man. However, before He heals the man, He asked him if he WANTS to be healed. It seems like a strange question doesn’t it? You would think that this man obviously would love to be healed.

However, so often (too often), our identity is wrapped around our brokenness. And I am just as broken as you are, and I also have to struggle to keep my identity in Christ – and not on my old, broken self.


but how i was designed by God to love isn't how i'm broken.

i'm far from perfect, but being gay isn't one of my flaws.
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Old 10-30-2006, 06:15 PM   #327
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Originally posted by AEON




In my view, marriage is God's endorsement of the spiritual/physical union between a man and a woman. When Adam was alone, God created Eve because it was “not good for man to be alone.” We are designed for such relationships.

We marry in the eyes of God, and then we ask for God’s strength to protect and preserve the marriage. The sex within the boundary of this marriage is meant to pleasing, beautiful, and holy.

Most marriages fail when one or both of the parties continues to place his/her own needs before the needs of the other…and God.


why can't two men or two women do this?

why can't two gay men have pleasing, beautiful, and holy sex? same with two women?
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Old 10-30-2006, 06:17 PM   #328
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maybe you could help out your conservative Christian brothers?

i do feel for AEON, as he's obviously taking an upopular stance, and he is doing his best to defend it.
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Old 10-30-2006, 06:17 PM   #329
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Originally posted by Irvine511




why can't two men or two women do this?

why can't two gay men have pleasing, beautiful, and holy sex? same with two women?
I don't know.
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Old 10-30-2006, 06:20 PM   #330
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maybe you could help out your conservative Christian brothers?

i do feel for AEON, as he's obviously taking an upopular stance, and he is doing his best to defend it.
Thanks Irvine. I appreciate the sympathy.

But I promise, I'm doing okay It is a great discussion in my opinion. And an important one.

However, if others want to add, by all means, please do!
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