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Old 10-29-2006, 04:13 PM   #286
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If you don't want your Church to forcibly perform gay marriage, have no worries, they have a constitutional right not to do so. Nothing about your individual life changes.
DING DING DING!!! Bingo.

Also, marriage is not exclusively about a love relationship and/or a family. I simply don't think it's fair that just because I am a woman and Phil is a man, he gets access to health benefits and legal privileges that a female partner of mine would be denied. How is that fair? How is that Biblical? Christ-like? Compassionate? That's right, ITS NOT. If I died tomorrow, Phil would be OK from the perspective of finances, assets, health coverage, etc. If I had a female partner, she'd be screwed and face imminent financial ruin. On top of that, she wouldn't even get to keep things we bought and shared together.

That's disgusting, period.
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Old 10-29-2006, 04:16 PM   #287
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But doesn't Jesus say somewhere that it's ok to go ahead and deny and discriminate in His name?

He must, because so many of His followers are so convinced that it's fine to do so.
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Old 10-29-2006, 04:22 PM   #288
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nor is it a course God wants humanity to pursue.
This is your projection of God, not mine. Nor many many others.

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Originally posted by AEON

It is a combination of factors for me, not only Scriptural, that have led to me my conclusion.
Really? I haven't seen you state any other reasoning beside your interpretations of Scripture, and even those lack a lot, for you've been avoiding many questions throughout this discussion.

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And I know that many feel it is selfish for me to want to deny marriage to anyone who wants to marry, gay or straight.
It's extremely selfish. And your examples of voting our morals may be true, but none of those examples denied rights to others like your voting does.


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The Bible, as far as I know, does not offer an example of a homosexual marriage.
If everything in your life needs an example in the Bible to be justifiable or right, then your life will be missing a lot of truth, for not everything has an example in the Bible.




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I have to disagree with you a bit on the Ephesians allusion. Yes, it is a comparison between Christ/Church and Bride/Groom. But you are missing the point if you do not see that there is a reason he chose a bride and groom as the very example of how beautiful and interlocking this relationship can/will be. If he wanted to say brides and groom, he certainly could have done so. Instead, he chooses the wonderful, mysterious, and beautiful picture of one man and one woman.
Once again, not everything has an example. He spoke in a language they would understand. He also didn't tell them the world isn't flat, for they wouldn't understand, does that mean the world is flat?


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Sometimes we don’t see the harm until later.
So you err on the side of caution because gay marriage MAY cause harm down the road?
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Old 10-29-2006, 09:51 PM   #289
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Also, marriage is not exclusively about a love relationship and/or a family. I simply don't think it's fair that just because I am a woman and Phil is a man, he gets access to health benefits and legal privileges that a female partner of mine would be denied. How is that fair? How is that Biblical? Christ-like? Compassionate? That's right, ITS NOT. If I died tomorrow, Phil would be OK from the perspective of finances, assets, health coverage, etc. If I had a female partner, she'd be screwed and face imminent financial ruin. On top of that, she wouldn't even get to keep things we bought and shared together.


on a practical level, this is sort of what it's all about.

i now freelance. have to fork over hundreds of dollars a month for health insurance. luckily, Memphis works for a very progressive company, and if/when we do get "married" i will be able to receive health care through his firm, but this is not the case for thousands upon thousands of gay people who either live in states where this is illegal or work for companies who can refuse to extend benefits to domestic partners.

on one level, it's all very economic, which is really what the history of marriage, especialy Biblical marriage, has always been about -- the mutual pursuit of financial stability.

this has very little to do with someone else's moral systems or moral values -- and, as an aside, i can object to incest and support gay marriage for reasons that have very little to do with whatever my moral values may or may not be.

i think it's quite presumptuous to say that people vote their morals. i don't. morals my guide me through my day-to-day decisions, big and small, but it's ethics, logic, and reason that determine how i vote. moral things might be ethical, but something that is ethical might not represent my moral values (i would point towrds Melon's stance on abortion -- it might be "wrong," but that doesn't mean it should be illegal).

i think that the idea of being a "values voter" is really a political tool handed down by the GOP to their voters to equip them with a language that makes it easier to express their prejudices and vote in the most self-interested, me-first way possible.

AEON, why are your own "moral values" more important than my access to tools that will enable me to create a stable, lasting union with someone? even if you think it's wrong, don't you think it would be good for me? good for the 30m gay people in the US? good for EVERYBODY? don't we all benefit when adults -- especially adult males -- have stability in their lives and boundaries for sexual activity?
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Old 10-29-2006, 10:08 PM   #290
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Originally posted by Irvine511




on a practical level, this is sort of what it's all about.

i now freelance. have to fork over hundreds of dollars a month for health insurance.
I'm self-employed, and this is who I get health insurance from, for around $146 a month. It's pretty good insurance.

www.nase.org
National Association for the Self Employed
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Old 10-29-2006, 11:00 PM   #291
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But why is it impossible for some people to see beyond their values and to the greater good?
I don't know about this...I don't think I fall in line with this statement.

I certainly vote for my values, and wouldn't vote otherwise. But my values ARE for the greater good of society, not for the betterment of myself. And that's how I am with most other things. My job, my studies, etc...all that is for the world, not for me.

I agree that a ban on homosexual marriages is discrimination. That's why I'm against it. My morals are to do my best to promote love and work towards a peaceful society.
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Old 10-29-2006, 11:07 PM   #292
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I'm self-employed, and this is who I get health insurance from, for around $146 a month. It's pretty good insurance.

www.nase.org
National Association for the Self Employed


thanks, i will check it out.

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Old 10-30-2006, 01:15 PM   #293
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I don't know about this...I don't think I fall in line with this statement.

I certainly vote for my values, and wouldn't vote otherwise. But my values ARE for the greater good of society, not for the betterment of myself. And that's how I am with most other things. My job, my studies, etc...all that is for the world, not for me.

I agree that a ban on homosexual marriages is discrimination. That's why I'm against it. My morals are to do my best to promote love and work towards a peaceful society.
Although I come to a different conclusion than you on homosexual marriages - I agree with everything else you have written here.
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Old 10-30-2006, 01:28 PM   #294
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Originally posted by Irvine511



AEON, why are your own "moral values" more important than my access to tools that will enable me to create a stable, lasting union with someone? even if you think it's wrong, don't you think it would be good for me? good for the 30m gay people in the US? good for EVERYBODY? don't we all benefit when adults -- especially adult males -- have stability in their lives and boundaries for sexual activity?
Irvine, before I try and answer this question, I want to thank you for the patience and restrain you have shown in this thread. I know I can be irritating, but you never lost your cool (at least not in the thread). Thanks.

What I feel might be “good” for you, or anyone else, will not necessarily equate to “tools,” financial gain, stable union…etc. As you know, I feel that we are all “cracked” and “weakened” in our own unique way, and only supernatural intervention can “fix” us, make us whole, complete, and perfect. That includes both you and I.

I think of U2’s great song “All Because of You.”

“I’m not broke, but you can see the cracks.
You can make me perfect again.”


I interpret the “You” in this song as God.
I vote my moral values, which I believe are rooted in God’s character, because I do not want to enable or encourage an activity, institution, or relationship which I believe will only keep people from truly knowing the healing power of Christ. That’s my sole motivation.
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Old 10-30-2006, 01:41 PM   #295
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Irvine, before I try and answer this question, I want to thank you for the patience and restrain you have shown in this thread. I know I can be irritating, but you never lost your cool (at least not in the thread). Thanks.

What I feel might be “good” for you, or anyone else, will not necessarily equate to “tools,” financial gain, stable union…etc. As you know, I feel that we are all “cracked” and “weakened” in our own unique way, and only supernatural intervention can “fix” us, make us whole, complete, and perfect. That includes both you and I.

I think of U2’s great song “All Because of You.”

“I’m not broke, but you can see the cracks.
You can make me perfect again.”


I interpret the “You” in this song as God.
I vote my moral values, which I believe are rooted in God’s character, because I do not want to enable or encourage an activity, institution, or relationship which I believe will only keep people from truly knowing the healing power of Christ. That’s my sole motivation.
That is how I feel.
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Old 10-30-2006, 01:46 PM   #296
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I do not want to enable or encourage an activity, institution, or relationship which I believe will only keep people from truly knowing the healing power of Christ. That’s my sole motivation.
So you're protecting those who won't make decisions you agree with?

And you don't like it when people call you smug?
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Old 10-30-2006, 01:53 PM   #297
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So you're protecting those who won't make decisions you agree with?
I have re-read this several times and I can't seem to make any sense of it. I take the blame. Could you please re-phrase this for me? Thanks.

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And you don't like it when people call you smug?
Umm. I can't say that I do. I try to listen to constructive criticism, but I don't necessarilty take eveything said about me to heart.

If I did, I probably would have left FYM after a few posts.
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Old 10-30-2006, 01:54 PM   #298
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on a practical level, this is sort of what it's all about.

...... luckily, Memphis works for a very progressive company, and if/when we do get "married" i will be able to receive health care through his firm, but this is not the case for thousands upon thousands of gay people who either live in states where this is illegal or work for companies who can refuse to extend benefits to domestic partners.
I wish more companies would go in this direction.

I guess what I meant in my first post, but didn't know how to say is that in general, what it all boils down to for me is individual rights and freedoms. On the topic of banning gay unions - how can something that REMOVES rights and freedoms from both persons = a greater good? It doesn't make any sense logically, morally, constitutionally..... For those who like to vote based on morals or what they interpret from the Bible I ask, who are you to say two people who don't know shouldn't be allowed the benefits of a couple that equals man + woman? I'm not talking about love, sex, relationships, kids, family, I'm talking about legal rights as an individual.
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Old 10-30-2006, 01:55 PM   #299
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Although I come to a different conclusion than you on homosexual marriages - I agree with everything else you have written here.
Well hey, at least we can agree on something
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Old 10-30-2006, 02:08 PM   #300
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Irvine, before I try and answer this question, I want to thank you for the patience and restrain you have shown in this thread. I know I can be irritating, but you never lost your cool (at least not in the thread). Thanks.

What I feel might be “good” for you, or anyone else, will not necessarily equate to “tools,” financial gain, stable union…etc. As you know, I feel that we are all “cracked” and “weakened” in our own unique way, and only supernatural intervention can “fix” us, make us whole, complete, and perfect. That includes both you and I.

I think of U2’s great song “All Because of You.”

“I’m not broke, but you can see the cracks.
You can make me perfect again.”


I interpret the “You” in this song as God.
I vote my moral values, which I believe are rooted in God’s character, because I do not want to enable or encourage an activity, institution, or relationship which I believe will only keep people from truly knowing the healing power of Christ. That’s my sole motivation.


so by denying me marriage, you're going to bring me closer to Jesus?
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