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Old 10-28-2006, 11:45 AM   #256
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Some of the best parents I know are gay couples with either multiple adopted children or children conceived by sperm bank.
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Old 10-28-2006, 11:58 AM   #257
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Originally posted by melon
What bothers me about all this "ideal family" rhetoric is that I don't know why a bunch of armchair psychologists would know what's best for a child over actual psychologists and child services experts.

Every case is a unique case, as I see it. Some children live with highly abusive heterosexual parents. Some children are adopted by highly abusive heterosexual parents. There have been a couple high profile cases around where I live regarding this. One was where a heterosexual couple adopted ten or so children and put them in cages. Another heterosexual couple abused their adopted son, starved him nearly to death, then violently killed and dismembered him.

A penis and a vagina does not automatically make you great parents. Being gay or lesbian or single does not automatically make you bad parents. There are many single parents, both in the present and in the past, who have raised their children perfectly normal. Not every single parent is a single parent by choice either. I guess all those 9/11 widows are going to ruin their children's futures, right?

That's where we're better off leaving this issue to the professionals. Credible psychologists have found nothing wrong with same-sex parenting. The gloom-and-doom scenario didn't happen. Sorry to disappoint all those who want it to be a disaster.

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Though I think it's obvious from my own post that we must disagree on some basic ideas, I find nothing to disagree with here in your post.

I would not argue that gays make "bad" parents, anymore than I would argue that my mom made a "bad" mother because she left my dad. On the contrary she is probably better than most moms because she had to do it all alone and she assuredly would have been a "bad" mother if she'd made us stay with my dad.

When I talk about costs, I'm not talking about "doom and gloom."
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Old 10-28-2006, 12:01 PM   #258
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Originally posted by Irvine511
the other thing about gay parents.

if you've got enough $$$, you can have a baby of your own, no need for adoption
That's what one my aquaintances here on Saipan did. She and her partner have one daughter--which my friend gave birth to--and they've got another one on the way.
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Old 10-28-2006, 12:10 PM   #259
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Originally posted by maycocksean
When I talk about costs, I'm not talking about "doom and gloom."
Sure, but some people would argue that, if your mother was a lesbian, that you would have been better off being taken from her and placed in a "proper family."

That's what I hate about all these "ideal family" generalizations. They don't work in real life. If life was "ideal," then there would be no children at all put up for adoption. That has clearly not been the case for a very long time.

Practicing widespread, government-sanctioned discrimination against homosexuals also does nothing to change this.

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Old 10-28-2006, 12:10 PM   #260
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I'm not arguing that there weren't negative consequences. I'm not arguing that God endorsed these types of marriage. There most certainly were--especially in reference to polygamy. We see the heartache in Abraham and Jacobs families as a result of this type of marriage. I can't think of any specific examples relating the marriages between Isaac and Rebekah (since they were relatives) but I'm sure there was a price to be paid of some sort there as well. These types of marriage were not part of God's ideal plan. BUT, I think you'd be very hard pressed to argue that God did NOT make allowances for them. And God did NOT make allowances for everything--he certainly didn't tolerate David's adultery. If God really felt it necessary to shut down polgyamy and marriage between relatives He would most certainly have done so, and I'm pretty certain He would have started with those who were His people, men "after His own heart" as David is described.

I'm not arguing that there mightn't be negative consequences related to gay marriage either. I am saying, that if God made allowances for something that wasn't part of His original plan in Biblical times, is it possible that He might do the same today?
Maycocksean, thank you for your gentle and patient posts. I could learn a thing or two from your posting etiquette.

Now, onto the discussion. I really do no see these stories as God “endorsing” these marriages. I suppose we just have to agree to disagree on the OT stories of polygamy. However, one way to test to see if something is an eternal moral law and not a cultural, ceremonial, or national law intended for only a specific place in time is to see if it is repeated in the New Testament. (this is only one of several tests – and I have posted a whole thread on this) As I’ve posted in this thread, Jesus himself defines marriage – and Paul offers more detail in Ephesians 5. Also, the list of the deacon requirements certainly mentions that a church leader be a man of one wife.

About sin and punishment… God does not punish every single sin the moment they are committed. God is patient.

You seem to be arguing that – “ If God really felt it necessary to shut down polygamy and marriage between relatives He would most certainly have done so-.” God hasn’t “shut down” murder and rape – would you that this means He is endorsing it? The thing is, we have free will. Not shutting down polygamy is not an endorsement.

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Originally posted by maycocksean


My reference to "the Bible tells me so" was not a scornful reference to living by the Word of God. I believe the Bible is the inspired and inerrant Word of God, so that puts you and I on the same footing Biblically--you won't be able to dismiss me as a secular humanist, I'm afraid. I am however, very wary of those, who assume that their understanding of scripture is above reproach or question. I've had people tell me that my marriage to my wife who is of a different race than I am is wrong because "the Bible tells them so." So while I have the utmost respect and reverence for God's Word, I'm not inclined to accept something as Truth just because someone says this is what the Bible "says." I think we have to be particularly careful about what we think the Bible says it when it seems to dovetail nicely with our prejudices and discomfort about changes that are taking place in our society. There are still many people who are very uncomfortable with interracial marriage and if they're convinced that the Bible speaks against it, it very conveniently justifies their opposition to it.

Not to change the subject here, but the Bible clearly teaches that the Sabbath should be observed on the seventh day-not Saturday, not Sunday. I have a feeling that you would disagree with me, and I could easily make the argument that you are choosing to follow the traditions of men rather than the plain Word of God. So these accusations can cut both ways. My question is this: How do you decide what to pick and choose? Because everyone picks and chooses. The reason we have so many denominations in Protestantism is because no one wants to admitt this. Especially in more conservative Protestantism, we simply make the argument that "we follow what the Bible says, the others don't." I know my church makes that argument, and I'm willing to bet yours does too.
Well, we certainly have many that interpret the Bible differently. And I do leave a little crack open for new ideas. I am not completely close minded. But one of the things that I’ve learned is that opinions are much different than convictions. Opinions are something that I hold with varying degrees of intensity that are subject to change with the latest bit of information. A conviction is a conclusion I’ve reached that the Holy Spirit has anchored to God’s Word.

In regards to all those denominations in Christianity - Simply because there are many different denominations doesn’t negate all of them and their convictions (nor mine.)

Yes, I could be wrong in my interpretation. But at the same time, I could be right. From where I am standing, I feel secure that I have the Scriptural evidence and Holy Spirit guidance on topics such as this – that is all I can offer. I am not forcing you or anyone else to agree with me. The best I can do is offer up my reasons.

Quote:
Originally posted by maycocksean

My purpose is not to insult you or your--our--faith. You seem very sincere, and you generally display courtesy and conviction in your posts--it's one of the reasons I keep going with the discussion. You do come off a bit smug sometimes, but my guess is that I do too, so I can't fault your for that. And it does take great courage to take an unpopular stand. But taking an unpopular stand doesn't inherently make you right. You could take a stand against integration at a civil rights march and you would be unpopular, but that wouldn't make you any less wrong.
Well, I really don’t think you come across as smug – and I know I do at times, despite my efforts not to. I have always been a black and white kind of person, once I have come to a conviction. But I am not quick to move something from mere opinion to conviction.

My views are unpopular here, but are rather popular in pastor forums. My point was only that I do not allow the popularity or unpopularity of a view to determine whether or not it is true.

I love studying Scripture. I love knowing Christ as a person. I love relying on the Holy Spirit. And I love having clarity. Without the Bible, my compass would be pointing all over the place (and it did when I was in my twenties). I did some religion hopping, and before that I majored in Philosophy for a few years. I have always been on a quest for Truth. Truth does exist. And believe it or not, I discovered there is such a thing as Light vs. Darkness, Good vs. Evil, Truth vs. Lies.

Maycocksean, I have no doubts that God is working wonderful things through you. If you right here beside me, chatting about versus and how we struggle to walk the Christian walk, I think we would probably come to some agreement that the Bible is clear that EVERYTHING come from only one of two sources: God or the World. Knowing this, it makes it easier to see where someone, or some idea, is actually coming from.

Since we are encouraging each other here to have a deeper understanding of Scripture and Christ – could you please do me a favor and read the First Letter of John today? It is a short letter to read. I would like to hear your thoughts about what John is trying to say – and see if you think that it relates to issues like this one.
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Old 10-28-2006, 12:25 PM   #261
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But, AEON, what do you make of this story, one account of which is found in Mark 12: 18-26. Jesus says: "Is not the reason you are mistaken that you do not understand the Scriptures or the power of God? For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage but are like the angels in heaven. (Mark 12:24-25, NASB).

I don't see what the controversy is here. It is as Jesus said, we are like angels - sexual unions are no longer in the picture.
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Old 10-28-2006, 12:44 PM   #262
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Now, onto the discussion. I really do no see these stories as God “endorsing” these marriages.
Nor do I. Again my argument is not about endorsement, but about allowance. I think there is a difference.

Quote:
Originally posted by AEON

I suppose we just have to agree to disagree on the OT stories of polygamy. However, one way to test to see if something is an eternal moral law and not a cultural, ceremonial, or national law intended for only a specific place in time is to see if it is repeated in the New Testament. (this is only one of several tests – and I have posted a whole thread on this) As I’ve posted in this thread, Jesus himself defines marriage – and Paul offers more detail in Ephesians 5. Also, the list of the deacon requirements certainly mentions that a church leader be a man of one wife.
I agree in principle. Indeed Jesus does point to what God intended, pre-fall.

However, the New Testament also comes out in agreement with slavery, as does the Old Testament. This could be problematic but I think we both agree it doesn't have to be. This is another example of God's allowance (but NOT endorsement).

The interesting thing I find about the life of Christ is that there were so many wrongs He could have addressed, and so many rights he could have promoted, and yet some things He chose to leave alone. He was guided by the Father of course, and He apparently knew that some things needed to be challenged just then and others, (though certainly just as offensive to His heart, I'm sure, like slavery) would simply have to be dealt with later. While he came to set the captives free, He couldn't spend His limited time on earth championing abolition of slavery. He had to focus on other things for the time being--like the spiritual freedom of mankind--knowing that the freedom from physical bondage motivated by His Holy Spirit would come later down the road. In the meantime the counsel of Paul would remain: "slaves obey your masters."



Quote:
Originally posted by AEON


You seem to be arguing that – “ If God really felt it necessary to shut down polygamy and marriage between relatives He would most certainly have done so-.” God hasn’t “shut down” murder and rape – would you that this means He is endorsing it? The thing is, we have free will. Not shutting down polygamy is not an endorsement.
No what I meant was, He would have told these men who were His represenatives, His followers--men like Abraham, Jacob, and David, that no this wasn't going to fly--He did not countenance adultery or murder in His followers. I don't believe he "allowed" anything that fell under the category of outright sin. So I wasn't talking about a general prevention of any behavior, sin or otherwise. I was talking about making a specific prohibition against the behavior, which I think He did with outright sin, but which he did not about behavior that came about as the result of living in a sin-stained world.


Quote:
Originally posted by AEON


In regards to all those denominations in Christianity - Simply because there are many different denominations doesn’t negate all of them and their convictions (nor mine.)
Agreed. I was simply pointing out that there will continue to be multiple denominations as long as there are people who are unwilling to consider that their interpretation of scripture may not be correct. Of course, the Truth is out there. I think it's mostly in my church. But then I could be wrong.

Quote:
Originally posted by AEON


Yes, I could be wrong in my interpretation. But at the same time, I could be right. From where I am standing, I feel secure that I have the Scriptural evidence and Holy Spirit guidance on topics such as this – that is all I can offer. I am not forcing you or anyone else to agree with me. The best I can do is offer up my reasons.
I recognize that.


Quote:
Originally posted by AEON


My views are unpopular here, but are rather popular in pastor forums. My point was only that I do not allow the popularity or unpopularity of a view to determine whether or not it is true.
Likewise, my views would not be so well recieved in a pastors forum, but I wouldn't back down from them.

Quote:
Originally posted by AEON


I love studying Scripture. I love knowing Christ as a person. I love relying on the Holy Spirit.
I do to. One of my favorite Christian artists, Rich Mullins once said, "I love the Bible not because it tells me I'm right, but because it tells me God's right, and the rest of us are just guessing."

Quote:
Originally posted by AEON

And I love having clarity. Without the Bible, my compass would be pointing all over the place (and it did when I was in my twenties). I did some religion hopping, and before that I majored in Philosophy for a few years. I have always been on a quest for Truth. Truth does exist. And believe it or not, I discovered there is such a thing as Light vs. Darkness, Good vs. Evil, Truth vs. Lies.
I love having clarity as well. I think we all do. I haven't "hopped" around as much. I've been basically "in the fold" so to speak all my life, and so far everything else I've seen "out there" hasn't been compelling enough to draw me away from what I have in Christ. If it weren't for Jesus and the sense of His presence in my life, I might have left the church, because so much of what happens in church and religion in general is nonsense. I also consider the Bible my compass, but I'm learning to be a bit more comfortable with the idea that I might still have a long way to go in learning how to "read" my compass correctly (pun intended).

Quote:
Originally posted by AEON

Maycocksean, I have no doubts that God is working wonderful things through you. If you right here beside me, chatting about versus and how we struggle to walk the Christian walk, I think we would probably come to some agreement that the Bible is clear that EVERYTHING come from only one of two sources: God or the World.
Agree on this.

Quote:
Originally posted by AEON

Knowing this, it makes it easier to see where someone, or some idea, is actually coming from.
Not so certain I agree with this.

Quote:
Originally posted by AEON

Since we are encouraging each other here to have a deeper understanding of Scripture and Christ – could you please do me a favor and read the First Letter of John today? It is a short letter to read. I would like to hear your thoughts about what John is trying to say – and see if you think that it relates to issues like this one.
I will check it out. It's 2:34 A.M Sunday morning here in Saipan, so it will probably be after I sleep for a bit.
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Old 10-28-2006, 12:51 PM   #263
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this is a lovely theological discussion, but not germaine to the topic at hand.

and it's interesting how some people come out swinging with words like "incest" and "polygamy" and then wind up retreating to the comfort and safety of their bibles and their cozy interpretations.

i was hoping for more than biblical Know-Nothingism.
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Old 10-28-2006, 12:54 PM   #264
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and as gay parents go, the vast, vast majority of them have leaped through so many different hoops in order to become parents that it's quite obvious that they really, really want to be parents and will take the job far more seriously -- there's the burden of "elevate the race"-type stuff that goes on for many gays -- than your average straight couple who finds themselves pregnant on a random Tuesday morning in March.

tell me that two lesbians who have tried for years and years to be parents are by definition going to be inferior parents to the typical shotgun wedding stereotype.
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Old 10-28-2006, 12:54 PM   #265
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Sure, but some people would argue that, if your mother was a lesbian, that you would have been better off being taken from her and placed in a "proper family."
Well, I wouldn't make that argument. Shoot, someone could have tried to make the same argument about my mom once she was divorced. "Take these kids and raise them with a nice happy family with a good mom and a good dad instead of just the one lady over there." I don't think so.

Quote:
Originally posted by melon
That's what I hate about all these "ideal family" generalizations. They don't work in real life. If life was "ideal," then there would be no children at all put up for adoption. That has clearly not been the case for a very long time.
Agreed. This is "real life" and that's why I don't oppose gay couples having/adopting children. I do believe they can provide wonderful homes for children, just as my mom provided for me. I know my belief that homosexuality wasn't part of God's original plan does not sit well (and if I'm wrong in that belief, I'm willing to be shown it. ) But I want to be clear that that belief in no way suggests I support any kind of government sanctioned discrimination or taking away of children or preventing of having children or anything like that.
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Old 10-28-2006, 01:31 PM   #266
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You are not on my ignore list. I just can't remain logged in and answer every single question from every single poster. I have to try my best to answer those that will keep the thread somewhat on track. I am trying not to open another can of worms.

I mean no disrespect.
Well then I ask you again, for you accuse others of cultural relativism, why have you redefined Paul's stance on women in the church? Or do you still believe they can't teach men?
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Old 10-28-2006, 02:08 PM   #267
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I know my belief that homosexuality wasn't part of God's original plan does not sit well (and if I'm wrong in that belief, I'm willing to be shown it. )
Well, it has also been argued that non-white people aren't part of "God's original plan." And that different languages aren't part of "God's original plan." And that anyone who isn't Judeo-Christian aren't part of "God's original plan."

Never mind the anthropological evidence to the contrary on all three accounts.

But, basically, that means that 7/8+ of the world isn't part of "God's original plan," one way or another.

The fact that same-sex activity has been observed amongst primates, our closest hominid relatives, means that such traits originated, at the very least, several million years ago with a common ancestor. I'd say it's been part of "God's original plan," because it is older than the existence of mankind itself.

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Old 10-28-2006, 02:24 PM   #268
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Hey. I've been on the Google and I can't find one of those nifty dark blue and yellow mariage equality bumper sticker. Lots of rainbow ones, but I like the blue and yellow ones better.

It's got a dark blue background and the words are in yellow with a yellow equal sign.
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Old 10-28-2006, 04:56 PM   #269
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Hey. I've been on the Google and I can't find one of those nifty dark blue and yellow mariage equality bumper sticker. Lots of rainbow ones, but I like the blue and yellow ones better.

It's got a dark blue background and the words are in yellow with a yellow equal sign.
I got one from the Human Rights Campaign...but I have since got a new car and haven't ordered one.

http://hrccornerstore.myimagefirst.c...8ALM74XNJXFWVF
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Old 10-28-2006, 05:00 PM   #270
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I know my belief that homosexuality wasn't part of God's original plan does not sit well (and if I'm wrong in that belief, I'm willing to be shown it. )
Hmm...I don't know if I agree. I believe that if God created people to be born of different sexual orientations, then that shows it is indeed part of God's plan. Sexual orientation is just what it is, orientation. People are born that way. It's not a disease, abnormality, or a choice. It is something people are born into.

I respect your opinion, I just think differently about it in terms of being God's plan and all.
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