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Old 10-27-2006, 03:20 PM   #196
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


In Israel at that time, the law was not kind to adulterers and fornicators, and it was commonly accepted that they were to be shunned. So be careful in your accusations aginst INDY, because as an Israelite at that time, you probably would have condemned her also, as would I have, as would most Israelites, unless you were one of the few who studied and understand the prophecies that Christ was to be born of a virgin. And not too many of the common folk had frequent access to study the scriptures on their own.
This is my WHOLE POINT, status quo and social climate of the time is no excuse.

Thank you for help making my point.
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Old 10-27-2006, 03:24 PM   #197
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Originally posted by anitram
Why aren't we criminalizing divorce then, in the name of the children?

Divorce rates (from heterosexual couples) are approaching 60%. Is this not the bigger threat to marriage than women having children out of wedlock and two men wanting equal rights under the law? Why aren't legislators doing something about it?
This is exactly why the family argument is so hypocritical. They want to outlaw the "sins" of others, but not the sins of their own.

All this moral superior talk in here makes me fucking sick.
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Old 10-27-2006, 03:25 PM   #198
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Originally posted by Irvine511
would you annul Martha's marriage because she does not have a child?
Somebody please answer this question.

I may have wedding gifts to return after 17 years of monogamous, heterosexual marriage.

Damn childlessness.
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Old 10-27-2006, 03:27 PM   #199
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar

This is exactly why the family argument is so hypocritical. They want to outlaw the "sins" of others, but not the sins of their own.

All this moral superior talk in here makes me fucking sick.
Especially when so many of these "moral", heterosexual lawmakers have been married more than one time. Great way to "protect" against incursions by the gay folks.
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Old 10-27-2006, 03:49 PM   #200
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Forgive me if I'm not as sympathetic to the view that our nation is slipping into moral chaos. Things were a lot more morally chaotic for blacks in Americaa hundred years ago and even fifty years ago than they are today. As a conservative Christian, I do see moral decay in our society, no question. I just don't romanticize the past as much, because I know that back in the good old days there were some truly amoral things that took place--things that in my view are certainly as immoral as anything going on in society today. .
Trying to live a life as Christ would live it does not mean that we are “romanticizing the past.” I too want a great, beautiful future for humanity. But that doesn’t mean I need to equate gay marriage with “progress” – I think it is “regress.”
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Homosexuality was widely practiced during ancient Greek times and somehow society managed to survive.
Now who is romanticizing the past?
As you well know, Paul attacked Greek culture up and down. And what is so marvelous about the early church is that it spread like wildfire amongst the Greeks. Why? Because they were thirsty for a better life. They knew full well that living a worldly life led to nothing but deep despair, loneliness, and destruction.
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I think the Enemy is far more subtle, personally. I think Satan most dangerous attacks are at the church. The Enemy works to create a church who values checking off all the rules more than love, a church filled with pride in their own righteousness (or even worse taking pride in the righteousness Christ gives us as if it were own somehow), a church that has become infatuated with worldly power and influence, a church that is willing to force it's faith on others
The Enemy certainly does attack the church. He especially loves to send wolves dressed in sheep’s clothes. But they can be easily spotted when you allow the Spirit to open your eyes. It becomes very apparent when they mock God’s very Word and try to confuse God’s children by trying to distort Truth for their need to be accepted by the world.

You seem to equate defending God’s Word as being self righteous. Why do you make this leap of reasoning? We are called to always be prepared to explain our Christian hope. I try my best to do this with gentleness and respect. While I do think that many here hate what I am saying, but I really do my best to be respectful – even though it is difficult to seem so when people are already hostile to your views before you even start typing. You don’t see me dumping the F-bombs and flat out calling someone names.

I point not to “AEON” as the example, but to Christ. Having confidence in His promises is not the same as self righteousness. Defending God’s Word is not the same as self righteousness.
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The most dangerous sin of all is pride and what disturbed me as I read this thread is who demonstrates humility, and who demonstrates pride. I don't see much humility coming from the so-called defenders of faith. I see a lot of the spirit of Christ in posters like Irvine who bear up under contempt and derision with patience. Sadly too many of us Christians are modeling ourselves after the Limbaughs, the Coulters, the Hannity's, and O'Reilly's of this world. We've bought their alluring mix of pride and self-righteousness.
Yes, pride is very dangerous. However, please don’t equate acquiescence with humility.
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Originally posted by maycocksean
And after all, if Satan can corrupt the very source of salvation, if he can muffle and distort the message of Christ's love. If he can get people to the point where they associate the name of Jesus with arrogance, pride, hypocrisy, and bigotry, well then he's got the game in the bag.
While we are at it, please don’t equate acquiescence with love either.
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Old 10-27-2006, 03:52 PM   #201
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could we talk about marriage equality and not biblical verses?

we don't refer to Biblical versus to justify other laws, why should we do so in this instance?
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Old 10-27-2006, 04:00 PM   #202
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I point not to “AEON” as the example, but to Christ. Having confidence in His promises is not the same as self righteousness. Defending God’s Word is not the same as self righteousness.


but aren't you really just defending your interpretation of God's Word? how could that not be self-righteous?

am i to accept your implied assertion that you are closer to the proper understanding of God's Word than, say, Melon? and if so, why?
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Old 10-27-2006, 04:09 PM   #203
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Aeon, you have a great knack for ignoring questions asked of you...
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Old 10-27-2006, 04:10 PM   #204
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Originally posted by Irvine511




but aren't you really just defending your interpretation of God's Word? how could that not be self-righteous?

am i to accept your implied assertion that you are closer to the proper understanding of God's Word than, say, Melon? and if so, why?
I can't answer this question for you. All I can do is ask you to read the Gospel of John - from start to finish - and see if what I post is more in line with the teachings of Jesus than Melon's.

If you think mine are more in line, then we agree on something.

If you think that Melon's are more in line, then re-read.

(that was a joke)
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Old 10-27-2006, 04:32 PM   #205
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well, bluntly, going on the basis of the posts in here, i find Melon's knowledge of scripture second to none, so i'd probably be inclined to accept his interpretation because of my previously held opinion of this particular interpreter.

but isn't that different, then, from "God's Word"?

does that apply to all scripture? we're all, ultimately, hearing what we most want, or need, to hear when we most want, or need, to hear it.
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Old 10-27-2006, 04:43 PM   #206
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Originally posted by Irvine511
well, bluntly, going on the basis of the posts in here, i find Melon's knowledge of scripture second to none, so i'd probably be inclined to accept his interpretation because of my previously held opinion of this particular interpreter.

but isn't that different, then, from "God's Word"?

does that apply to all scripture? we're all, ultimately, hearing what we most want, or need, to hear when we most want, or need, to hear it.
Well, Melon definitely has a good bit of knowledge. However, since he is a self described Secular Humanist - I question his conclusions.

As far as knowledge of the Bible in this forum goes, I think that 80's has demonstrated to me a tremendous ability to not only dig up poignant verses, but also is extremely gifted in the ability to keep it focused on the essential teachings of Christ – and he does not seem motivated by a need to re-think the Bible in culturally relative terms.

That being said, you are certainly entitled to your opinion.
I still encourage you to do your own research (i.e. read the Bible for yourself - esp. John)
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Old 10-27-2006, 05:00 PM   #207
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- I question his conclusions.

As far as knowledge of the Bible in this forum goes, I think that 80's has demonstrated to me a tremendous ability to not only dig up poignant verses, but also is extremely gifted in the ability to keep it focused on the essential teachings of Christ – and he does not seem motivated by a need to re-think the Bible in culturally relative terms.
Well being that you can't answer certain questions, the motives and conclusions both of you come up with are very questionable.
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Old 10-27-2006, 05:08 PM   #208
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so, anyway, back to marriage equality ... putting aside whatever moral beliefs we've selected for ourselves from whatever religious texts, can we find a secular, cultural argument against it?
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Old 10-27-2006, 05:10 PM   #209
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I still encourage you to do your own research (i.e. read the Bible for yourself - esp. John)


i'd like to be more familiar with the Bible, and i'd love to do a Bible Study class at some point -- but using the book as a historical text, or literature, not someone out to prove it's veracity. i'd like to study it as a system, not as, well, inerrant gospel.

right now, i'm much more personally interested in Buddhist thought. i find it extremely comforting and calming. the world seems less scary.
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Old 10-27-2006, 06:24 PM   #210
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Originally posted by Irvine511
can we find a secular, cultural argument against it?
Hasn't this been asked in every thread like this?

And hasn't it been unanswered in every thread like this?
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