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Old 05-13-2005, 10:19 PM   #1
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New Iraqi body count

And this ones from the freaking UN, it's about how Iraq is on the road to shit and how the country is on the brink of collapse and probably civil war, but they did a survey in there of 21,600 households all over Iraq in all of the 18 provinces unlike the lancet survey that only used 808 households in 11 of the proviences and they came out with a different and much more plausible value than 100,000.
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The invasion of Iraq and its aftermath caused the deaths of 24,000 Iraqis, including many children, according to the most detailed survey yet of postwar life in the country.

The UN report paints a picture of modern Iraq brought close to collapse despite its oil wealth. Successive wars, a decade of sanctions and the current violence have destroyed services, undermined health and education and made the lives of ordinary Iraqis dangerous and miserable.

The survey for the UN Development Programme, entitled Iraq Living Conditions Survey 2004, questioned more than 21,600 households this time last year. Its findings, released by the Ministry of Planning yesterday, could finally resolve the debate over how many Iraqis were killed in the war that overthrew the regime of Saddam Hussein in April 2003.

The 370-page report said that it was 95 per cent confident that the toll during the war and the first year of occupation was 24,000, but could have been between 18,000 and 29,000.
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This is from the UN, it is hardly a pro-war organisation and it's confidence levels are much tighter than those of the meaningless lancet survey. I doubt that this will replace the oh-so-easy to remember 100,000 figure that I have seen bumped up to 150,000 but still, interesting.
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Old 05-13-2005, 11:07 PM   #2
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24,000 Iraqis.

How many people were killed in 9/11?

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Old 05-14-2005, 12:56 AM   #3
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30,000 a year killed off by the regime directly with the added deaths from the regimes manipulation of the UN oil for food program and sanctions to supress the population. 24,000 deaths is horrifying, but its not even close to what was happening under Saddam Hussein.
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Old 05-14-2005, 11:13 AM   #4
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Originally posted by melon


How many people were killed in 9/11?

1321











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Old 05-15-2005, 10:42 PM   #5
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With the refuseal off the US goverment to do a official bodycount,..i think 24000 is a very low number.
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Old 05-21-2005, 06:08 PM   #6
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I have seen estimates of 27,000 or so elsewhere. 24,000 probably not far off. I would have to admit the 100,000 estimate seems to be based on a very questionable survey.
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Old 06-23-2005, 08:06 AM   #7
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that is absolutely disgusting.

Everytime i see or hear anything about this STUPID war (like every second of the day) i feel sick.

Yes Saddam was a bad man BAD MAN! but, you know what? There are PLENTY of bad men in this world, and PLENTY of dictators and rebel gangs killing civilians left right and centre this very minute, yet are the united states helping these countries?!

No.

Because they want to play the 'saddam was bad, we are good for liberating iraq from him' card.

Well you know what? You've just f*cked up the whole western civilisation ever to have close relations with muslim countries. You've killed innocent men women and children in your lust for 'liberation' Its an occupation fair and square.

I'm disgusted i'm even part of a country who is an allie to you. But then we only did send over 500 troops, and then we dont KILL anyone (or even kill our own soldiers, guess because we're not gun toting trigger happy arrogant people) in fact, we've only had one soldier die the whole time.

ba, i dont even know why i waste my time - this war brings too much anger out of me.
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Old 06-23-2005, 10:12 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by dazzlingamy
that is absolutely disgusting.

Everytime i see or hear anything about this STUPID war (like every second of the day) i feel sick.

Yes Saddam was a bad man BAD MAN! but, you know what? There are PLENTY of bad men in this world, and PLENTY of dictators and rebel gangs killing civilians left right and centre this very minute, yet are the united states helping these countries?!

No.

Because they want to play the 'saddam was bad, we are good for liberating iraq from him' card.

Well you know what? You've just f*cked up the whole western civilisation ever to have close relations with muslim countries. You've killed innocent men women and children in your lust for 'liberation' Its an occupation fair and square.

ba, i dont even know why i waste my time - this war brings too much anger out of me.
You criticize the United States for not helping out more nations around the world that are subject to abuse by dictators or thugs. Do you want the US to involve itself in as many wars as possible? Would you be happy then? I personally take offense when you say the US does nothing other countries. What about 1993 in Somalia trying to get rid of Mohamed Farrah Aidid, Milosovic in Bosnia, or Hitler in Germany. Throughout it's time as a superpower, the US has a pretty decent job of helping out other countries. I am not so blind as to think everything they do is admirable, but you would hard pressed to find any country that gets it all right.

Why doesn't your country do more to help out the people living under dictators? Could your get involved in a full out war without killing a single innocent person? I will personally shake your hand if it can.

The relationship between the Muslim and western worlds has not been helped by the US but to say we've "f*cked everything up" is absurd. The western world have been fighting muslims since the Crusades. There's a little bit of bad blood between the two sides. Maybe your country could bring everyone together and bring about world peace. I think we all would welcome that.
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Old 06-23-2005, 11:53 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by randhail


You criticize the United States for not helping out more nations around the world that are subject to abuse by dictators or thugs. Do you want the US to involve itself in as many wars as possible? Would you be happy then? I personally take offense when you say the US does nothing other countries. What about 1993 in Somalia trying to get rid of Mohamed Farrah Aidid, Milosovic in Bosnia, or Hitler in Germany. Throughout it's time as a superpower, the US has a pretty decent job of helping out other countries. I am not so blind as to think everything they do is admirable, but you would hard pressed to find any country that gets it all right.

Why doesn't your country do more to help out the people living under dictators? Could your get involved in a full out war without killing a single innocent person? I will personally shake your hand if it can.

The relationship between the Muslim and western worlds has not been helped by the US but to say we've "f*cked everything up" is absurd. The western world have been fighting muslims since the Crusades. There's a little bit of bad blood between the two sides. Maybe your country could bring everyone together and bring about world peace. I think we all would welcome that.

No, i dont want the us to go to war in ANY Country. I want them to keep their big nose out of everyone's business because they have this self involved (AND WRONG) assumption that they are always in the right and think sailing in dropping bombs left right and centre, killing everything and offing sorrys to families who have lost loved ones as a 'liberation'.

And im talking about dictators NOW. (btw, i see that america only took an interest in WW2 when pearl harbour was bombed. ins't that ironic)

I think taking diplomatic steps is the only solution with problems like this. Or get someone to sneak in an assasinate saddam without killing 35,000 innocent countrymen in your fight for 'liberation'

And yes, of course there has always been differences between muslims and the western world because of our differenting values, but what the US has done now, is made them TWICE as angry and TWICE as hostile and has made every americans life more fragile. And that is HIS fault. And i dont blame them one bit. When you're next terrorism attack occurs, you will all know who's to blame. *shrug*
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Old 06-24-2005, 12:01 AM   #10
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Blah, blah, blah. Grey is a great colour. Everyone should get to know it.
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Old 06-24-2005, 05:20 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by dazzlingamy



No, i dont want the us to go to war in ANY Country. I want them to keep their big nose out of everyone's business because they have this self involved (AND WRONG) assumption that they are always in the right and think sailing in dropping bombs left right and centre, killing everything and offing sorrys to families who have lost loved ones as a 'liberation'.

And im talking about dictators NOW. (btw, i see that america only took an interest in WW2 when pearl harbour was bombed. ins't that ironic)

I think taking diplomatic steps is the only solution with problems like this. Or get someone to sneak in an assasinate saddam without killing 35,000 innocent countrymen in your fight for 'liberation'

And yes, of course there has always been differences between muslims and the western world because of our differenting values, but what the US has done now, is made them TWICE as angry and TWICE as hostile and has made every americans life more fragile. And that is HIS fault. And i dont blame them one bit. When you're next terrorism attack occurs, you will all know who's to blame. *shrug*
I hope you enjoy looking at the world through rose colored glasses. BTW, you are at the pinnacle of hypocrisy when you say the United States when say the United States gets involved in everyone else's business but only became involved in WWII when Pearl Harbor got bombed. Oh and for your diplomatic approach to things, here is a list of DIPLOMATIC STEPS the US took leading up to the war:

June 14, 1941 - United States freezes German and Italian assets in America.
Aug 1, 1941 - United States announces an oil embargo against aggressor states.
Dec 11, 1941 - Germany declares war on the United States.

I also like how you specifically mention dictators NOW and don't acknowledge anything that has gone on in the past decade regarding Somalia and Bosnia. What are some names of current dictators? Don't make unsubstantiated claims and then not back them up.

Notice too now that Saddam is gone, it is Iraqis killing Iraqis. They are blowing each other up, yet I suppose that is the US's fault too. Hopefully, your country will lead a diplomatic envoy to North Korea, Iran, and wherever else something bad is going on and all the world's problems will be solved.
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Old 06-25-2005, 01:26 AM   #12
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Frankly, you are not getting my point and getting all caught up in semantics so i'll explain it easily.

I think the war in Iraq was wrong. I get annoyed and frustrated when the United States says they went to war in Iraq to get rid of a dictator when in reality they really went for one thing.

The USA was smarting after sept 11th, so after killing a few thousand afganistan people, they set their sights on iraq and used WMD (which has been stated NOW there were none) as an EXCUSE to really go in a flex some muscle and say 'we wont stand for getting our arses kicked'

but the sad thing is, they've killed 10 times more men, women and children with this ill thought out and disgusting occupation of a country.

The holier then thou attitude works on no one.

America thinks its a great big superpower protector of the innocent, when in fact its a ruthless cold blooded money hungry killing machine, and will spin more propoganda to its citizens then the nazi's could have dreamed of.
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Old 06-25-2005, 08:22 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by dazzlingamy
Frankly, you are not getting my point and getting all caught up in semantics so i'll explain it easily.

I think the war in Iraq was wrong. I get annoyed and frustrated when the United States says they went to war in Iraq to get rid of a dictator when in reality they really went for one thing.

The USA was smarting after sept 11th, so after killing a few thousand afganistan people, they set their sights on iraq and used WMD (which has been stated NOW there were none) as an EXCUSE to really go in a flex some muscle and say 'we wont stand for getting our arses kicked'

but the sad thing is, they've killed 10 times more men, women and children with this ill thought out and disgusting occupation of a country.

The holier then thou attitude works on no one.

America thinks its a great big superpower protector of the innocent, when in fact its a ruthless cold blooded money hungry killing machine, and will spin more propoganda to its citizens then the nazi's could have dreamed of.
So getting rid of the Taliban was a bad thing? Hmmm, I don't think I'd want to live under that regime but that's just me...maybe you would've liked living there where women were treated about as dogshit. You may be the only person to speak negatively about the operations in Afghanistan.

If 9/11 happened in your country, you wouldn't want the military to do anything? Shrugging your shoulders and saying oh well, better luck tomorrow isn't the way I'd want to approach things. It would be open season on any country that did not respond to a terrorist attack.
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Old 06-30-2005, 09:14 AM   #14
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Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11.

Therefore dazzlingamy's theory about the US "flexing it's muscles" and showing the world we have a big penis by bombing and invading Iraq is correct. Sad. But correct.
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Old 07-02-2005, 03:07 AM   #15
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Quote:
it is Iraqis killing Iraqis
Uh.. not really. Most of the insurgents are foreign born.

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Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11.
Maybe not in a direct sense, but in a broader strategic picture, yes it did. We sent a signal with Afganistan, but with Iraq, we went a step further to try and really start changing the long term fate of the region.
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