New Iraqi body count

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A_Wanderer

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And this ones from the freaking UN, it's about how Iraq is on the road to shit and how the country is on the brink of collapse and probably civil war, but they did a survey in there of 21,600 households all over Iraq in all of the 18 provinces unlike the lancet survey that only used 808 households in 11 of the proviences and they came out with a different and much more plausible value than 100,000.
The invasion of Iraq and its aftermath caused the deaths of 24,000 Iraqis, including many children, according to the most detailed survey yet of postwar life in the country.

The UN report paints a picture of modern Iraq brought close to collapse despite its oil wealth. Successive wars, a decade of sanctions and the current violence have destroyed services, undermined health and education and made the lives of ordinary Iraqis dangerous and miserable.

The survey for the UN Development Programme, entitled Iraq Living Conditions Survey 2004, questioned more than 21,600 households this time last year. Its findings, released by the Ministry of Planning yesterday, could finally resolve the debate over how many Iraqis were killed in the war that overthrew the regime of Saddam Hussein in April 2003.

The 370-page report said that it was 95 per cent confident that the toll during the war and the first year of occupation was 24,000, but could have been between 18,000 and 29,000.
link

This is from the UN, it is hardly a pro-war organisation and it's confidence levels are much tighter than those of the meaningless lancet survey. I doubt that this will replace the oh-so-easy to remember 100,000 figure that I have seen bumped up to 150,000 but still, interesting.
 
30,000 a year killed off by the regime directly with the added deaths from the regimes manipulation of the UN oil for food program and sanctions to supress the population. 24,000 deaths is horrifying, but its not even close to what was happening under Saddam Hussein.
 
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With the refuseal off the US goverment to do a official bodycount,..i think 24000 is a very low number.
 
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I have seen estimates of 27,000 or so elsewhere. 24,000 probably not far off. I would have to admit the 100,000 estimate seems to be based on a very questionable survey.
 
that is absolutely disgusting.

Everytime i see or hear anything about this STUPID war (like every second of the day) i feel sick.

Yes Saddam was a bad man BAD MAN! :mad: but, you know what? There are PLENTY of bad men in this world, and PLENTY of dictators and rebel gangs killing civilians left right and centre this very minute, yet are the united states helping these countries?!

No.

Because they want to play the 'saddam was bad, we are good for liberating iraq from him' card.

Well you know what? You've just f*cked up the whole western civilisation ever to have close relations with muslim countries. You've killed innocent men women and children in your lust for 'liberation' Its an occupation fair and square.

I'm disgusted i'm even part of a country who is an allie to you. But then we only did send over 500 troops, and then we dont KILL anyone (or even kill our own soldiers, guess because we're not gun toting trigger happy arrogant people) in fact, we've only had one soldier die the whole time.

ba, i dont even know why i waste my time - this war brings too much anger out of me.
 
dazzlingamy said:
that is absolutely disgusting.

Everytime i see or hear anything about this STUPID war (like every second of the day) i feel sick.

Yes Saddam was a bad man BAD MAN! :mad: but, you know what? There are PLENTY of bad men in this world, and PLENTY of dictators and rebel gangs killing civilians left right and centre this very minute, yet are the united states helping these countries?!

No.

Because they want to play the 'saddam was bad, we are good for liberating iraq from him' card.

Well you know what? You've just f*cked up the whole western civilisation ever to have close relations with muslim countries. You've killed innocent men women and children in your lust for 'liberation' Its an occupation fair and square.

ba, i dont even know why i waste my time - this war brings too much anger out of me.

You criticize the United States for not helping out more nations around the world that are subject to abuse by dictators or thugs. Do you want the US to involve itself in as many wars as possible? Would you be happy then? I personally take offense when you say the US does nothing other countries. What about 1993 in Somalia trying to get rid of Mohamed Farrah Aidid, Milosovic in Bosnia, or Hitler in Germany. Throughout it's time as a superpower, the US has a pretty decent job of helping out other countries. I am not so blind as to think everything they do is admirable, but you would hard pressed to find any country that gets it all right.

Why doesn't your country do more to help out the people living under dictators? Could your get involved in a full out war without killing a single innocent person? I will personally shake your hand if it can.

The relationship between the Muslim and western worlds has not been helped by the US but to say we've "f*cked everything up" is absurd. The western world have been fighting muslims since the Crusades. There's a little bit of bad blood between the two sides. Maybe your country could bring everyone together and bring about world peace. I think we all would welcome that.
 
randhail said:


You criticize the United States for not helping out more nations around the world that are subject to abuse by dictators or thugs. Do you want the US to involve itself in as many wars as possible? Would you be happy then? I personally take offense when you say the US does nothing other countries. What about 1993 in Somalia trying to get rid of Mohamed Farrah Aidid, Milosovic in Bosnia, or Hitler in Germany. Throughout it's time as a superpower, the US has a pretty decent job of helping out other countries. I am not so blind as to think everything they do is admirable, but you would hard pressed to find any country that gets it all right.

Why doesn't your country do more to help out the people living under dictators? Could your get involved in a full out war without killing a single innocent person? I will personally shake your hand if it can.

The relationship between the Muslim and western worlds has not been helped by the US but to say we've "f*cked everything up" is absurd. The western world have been fighting muslims since the Crusades. There's a little bit of bad blood between the two sides. Maybe your country could bring everyone together and bring about world peace. I think we all would welcome that.


No, i dont want the us to go to war in ANY Country. I want them to keep their big nose out of everyone's business because they have this self involved (AND WRONG) assumption that they are always in the right and think sailing in dropping bombs left right and centre, killing everything and offing sorrys to families who have lost loved ones as a 'liberation'.

And im talking about dictators NOW. (btw, i see that america only took an interest in WW2 when pearl harbour was bombed. ins't that ironic)

I think taking diplomatic steps is the only solution with problems like this. Or get someone to sneak in an assasinate saddam without killing 35,000 innocent countrymen in your fight for 'liberation'

And yes, of course there has always been differences between muslims and the western world because of our differenting values, but what the US has done now, is made them TWICE as angry and TWICE as hostile and has made every americans life more fragile. And that is HIS fault. And i dont blame them one bit. When you're next terrorism attack occurs, you will all know who's to blame. *shrug*
 
dazzlingamy said:



No, i dont want the us to go to war in ANY Country. I want them to keep their big nose out of everyone's business because they have this self involved (AND WRONG) assumption that they are always in the right and think sailing in dropping bombs left right and centre, killing everything and offing sorrys to families who have lost loved ones as a 'liberation'.

And im talking about dictators NOW. (btw, i see that america only took an interest in WW2 when pearl harbour was bombed. ins't that ironic)

I think taking diplomatic steps is the only solution with problems like this. Or get someone to sneak in an assasinate saddam without killing 35,000 innocent countrymen in your fight for 'liberation'

And yes, of course there has always been differences between muslims and the western world because of our differenting values, but what the US has done now, is made them TWICE as angry and TWICE as hostile and has made every americans life more fragile. And that is HIS fault. And i dont blame them one bit. When you're next terrorism attack occurs, you will all know who's to blame. *shrug*

I hope you enjoy looking at the world through rose colored glasses. BTW, you are at the pinnacle of hypocrisy when you say the United States when say the United States gets involved in everyone else's business but only became involved in WWII when Pearl Harbor got bombed. Oh and for your diplomatic approach to things, here is a list of DIPLOMATIC STEPS the US took leading up to the war:

June 14, 1941 - United States freezes German and Italian assets in America.
Aug 1, 1941 - United States announces an oil embargo against aggressor states.
Dec 11, 1941 - Germany declares war on the United States.

I also like how you specifically mention dictators NOW and don't acknowledge anything that has gone on in the past decade regarding Somalia and Bosnia. What are some names of current dictators? Don't make unsubstantiated claims and then not back them up.

Notice too now that Saddam is gone, it is Iraqis killing Iraqis. They are blowing each other up, yet I suppose that is the US's fault too. Hopefully, your country will lead a diplomatic envoy to North Korea, Iran, and wherever else something bad is going on and all the world's problems will be solved.
 
Frankly, you are not getting my point and getting all caught up in semantics so i'll explain it easily.

I think the war in Iraq was wrong. I get annoyed and frustrated when the United States says they went to war in Iraq to get rid of a dictator when in reality they really went for one thing.

The USA was smarting after sept 11th, so after killing a few thousand afganistan people, they set their sights on iraq and used WMD (which has been stated NOW there were none) as an EXCUSE to really go in a flex some muscle and say 'we wont stand for getting our arses kicked'

but the sad thing is, they've killed 10 times more men, women and children with this ill thought out and disgusting occupation of a country.

The holier then thou attitude works on no one.

America thinks its a great big superpower protector of the innocent, when in fact its a ruthless cold blooded money hungry killing machine, and will spin more propoganda to its citizens then the nazi's could have dreamed of.
 
dazzlingamy said:
Frankly, you are not getting my point and getting all caught up in semantics so i'll explain it easily.

I think the war in Iraq was wrong. I get annoyed and frustrated when the United States says they went to war in Iraq to get rid of a dictator when in reality they really went for one thing.

The USA was smarting after sept 11th, so after killing a few thousand afganistan people, they set their sights on iraq and used WMD (which has been stated NOW there were none) as an EXCUSE to really go in a flex some muscle and say 'we wont stand for getting our arses kicked'

but the sad thing is, they've killed 10 times more men, women and children with this ill thought out and disgusting occupation of a country.

The holier then thou attitude works on no one.

America thinks its a great big superpower protector of the innocent, when in fact its a ruthless cold blooded money hungry killing machine, and will spin more propoganda to its citizens then the nazi's could have dreamed of.

So getting rid of the Taliban was a bad thing? Hmmm, I don't think I'd want to live under that regime but that's just me...maybe you would've liked living there where women were treated about as dogshit. You may be the only person to speak negatively about the operations in Afghanistan.

If 9/11 happened in your country, you wouldn't want the military to do anything? Shrugging your shoulders and saying oh well, better luck tomorrow isn't the way I'd want to approach things. It would be open season on any country that did not respond to a terrorist attack.
 
Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11.

Therefore dazzlingamy's theory about the US "flexing it's muscles" and showing the world we have a big penis by bombing and invading Iraq is correct. Sad. But correct.
 
it is Iraqis killing Iraqis

Uh.. not really. Most of the insurgents are foreign born.

Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11.

Maybe not in a direct sense, but in a broader strategic picture, yes it did. We sent a signal with Afganistan, but with Iraq, we went a step further to try and really start changing the long term fate of the region.
 
dazzlingamy said:


And im talking about dictators NOW. (btw, i see that america only took an interest in WW2 when pearl harbour was bombed. ins't that ironic)


America had been supplying arms and other aid to Britain and covertly attacking German seacraft before Pearl Harbor was bombed.
 
dazzingly amy, your logic is seriously flawed.

you criticise the US for going into Iraq, then say we should be helping every other country under a dictator. you say we should keep out of other peoples' business, then you criticise us for waiting to get our military involved in WW2 until it involved us more directly.
 
pax, I was just about to post that!

I'm sort of confused by part of it. It cites American/coalition forces as responsible for 37% of all civilian deaths, and anti-coalition forces as responsible for only 9%. Then it says "criminals" were responsible for 36% of deaths. What do they mean by criminals? They aren't incorporating the unrelated murder figures into the statistics, are they? :scratch: Or do they consider some groups "freedom fighters" and others simply criminals? Am I missing something?
 
VertigoGal said:
pax, I was just about to post that!

I'm sort of confused by part of it. It cites American/coalition forces as responsible for 37% of all civilian deaths, and anti-coalition forces as responsible for only 9%. Then it says "criminals" were responsible for 36% of deaths. What do they mean by criminals? They aren't incorporating the unrelated murder figures into the statistics, are they? :scratch: Or do they consider some groups "freedom fighters" and others simply criminals? Am I missing something?

I wouldn't pay much attention to the report because it is done by particular anti-war groups that are unlikely to be objective and report data that did not support their political views. They rely on media reports instead of actually identifying bodies and determining the cause of death.

Media reports and anti-war groups claimed Israely soldiers murdered 7,000 civilians back in Jenin in 2002. Forensic experts later went in and determined that only 48 civilians had been killed and all of their deaths were the results of accidents.

The United States military does not target civilians! The Terrorist/insurgents do target Civilians. That fact alone shows you just how unobjective and political motivated bodycounts figures are.
 
Sting, I agree that some counts, like the 100,000 claim, were exaggerated and politically motivated. But why do you think that this particular count is slanted? What's your take on the civilian death toll then? I know our use of smart bombs is way up since the first Gulf War (I think), but surely we've accidentally killed civilians over there. What source would you trust for an accurate count of civilian deaths?
 
VertigoGal said:
Sting, I agree that some counts, like the 100,000 claim, were exaggerated and politically motivated. But why do you think that this particular count is slanted? What's your take on the civilian death toll then? I know our use of smart bombs is way up since the first Gulf War (I think), but surely we've accidentally killed civilians over there. What source would you trust for an accurate count of civilian deaths?

I think it is slanted for two reasons:

#1 the mythology used to arrive at the count, which just uses media reports, is simply inaccurate.

#2 The obvious political motivations of the groups behind the count, which is why there are absurd results claiming that the largest killer of civilians in Iraq is a group that does not target civilians, the US military and coaltion.

The US military goes to extreme lengths to insure that civilians are not harmed or killed in fighting. Of course, in certain situations that will be impossible, but the fact remains that there is not another military force on the planet that takes more care when it comes to preventing civilian loss of life. More over, the technology the US military has to help it in achieving this objective is far ahead of other military forces around the world. Its not just smart bombs, it also involves having better intelligence about the location of certain individuals, as well as better tactics to catch or kill them with causing harm to civilians. Also, the US military has the best equipment in the world to jam or deactivate terrorist bombs in the area.

The United States military does not engage in official body counts although from time to time they do estimate insurgent losses. The best and most accurate body count is something that would be done by the countries Police Force and forensic/medical specialist/workers who are able to identify bodies and determine cause of death as well as what killed them. Unfortunately at this time, Iraq does not yet have resources to give such an accurate count. It is time consuming and takes up a lot of important resources to give a 100% accounting of who, where, and how various people across Iraq have died. Just because someone is found dead with gunshot or shrapnel wounds does not mean it was the result of the US military.

To sum up, there is currently no group in Iraq that is able to give an accurate count on the real number of civlians deaths as well as who was responsible for the deaths. Iraq's Police and Medical teams are doing counts at this time, but I think it will be sometime before they can give a truely accurate count.
 
STING2 said:
I wouldn't pay much attention to the report because it is done by particular anti-war groups that are unlikely to be objective and report data that did not support their political views. They rely on media reports instead of actually identifying bodies and determining the cause of death.

Media reports and anti-war groups claimed Israely soldiers murdered 7,000 civilians back in Jenin in 2002. Forensic experts later went in and determined that only 48 civilians had been killed and all of their deaths were the results of accidents.

I wouldn't pay much attention to pro-war posters' posts on this sub-forum as they are created by people that are unlikely to be objective or to report data that does not support their political views and pro-Iraq war slant. They relie on pro-US military propaganda instead of actually identifying bodies and determining the cause of death.
 
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Sting2, you forget that a UN team tried 3 times to go into the Jenin camp but were turned back by tanks. The Israelis took a week to "clean the place up" before they let people in.The old story. Cover-up. It was so obvious a 3 -yr old could see it.

It was the same kind of Sharon's unique brand of crap that an Israeli court tried and convicted him for 20 yrs ago..so that he was barred from public office for 10 yrs. The only time an Israeli offical was found at least party guilty of this type of crime.

Leopards never change their spots.
 
Teta040 said:
Sting2, you forget that a UN team tried 3 times to go into the Jenin camp but were turned back by tanks. The Israelis took a week to "clean the place up" before they let people in.The old story. Cover-up. It was so obvious a 3 -yr old could see it.

It was the same kind of Sharon's unique brand of crap that an Israeli court tried and convicted him for 20 yrs ago..so that he was barred from public office for 10 yrs. The only time an Israeli offical was found at least party guilty of this type of crime.

Leopards never change their spots.

You forget that the UN team was able to account for everyone in the town and to interview thousands of people who actually lived in Jenin as well as to study the entire area to insure that there was no cover up. The Serbs tried to cover up the massacres they committed in Bosnia, but they were easily caught once teams were able to go in and investigate and the Serbs had years to cover things up. Both citizens of Jenin and Israely troops confirmed the same account of what took place and UN teams studied the area and found that 48 civilians were killed and the study of their bodies revealed that all were killed as a result of accidents.

If it was the Israely military's main objective to kill innocent palestinian civilians, they could have killed them all 40 years ago when they first occupied the West Bank.
 
Here's something I posted in another thread that i'll post here with some changes:

The Iraq war is filled with lies. I remember in late 2002, before Bush sent in weapons inspectors to Iraq, he said that if they find weapons, and yet Iraq doesn't disarm, there will be a war. Bush was confident that he will definitely find weapons. However, the weapons inspectors found absolutely no weapons. But Bush wanted to go to war anyway. Therefore, before the war started, Bush changed his story, instead of making Iraq disarm, he said that Saddam Hussein must step down as leader within 3 days, or else the U.S. will attack. He also added another reason why the U.S. should go to war: Iraq/Al-Qaeda/9-11 relations. By giving this reason to the American people, many people supported the war.

So first Bush said that the U.S. will attack Iraq if they don't disarm. But when he found they have no weapons, he added 2 more reasons: the fact that Saddam is an evil dictator and that Iraq has relations with Al-Qaeda/9-11. Now, out of these 3 reasons, the first and third ones are bullshit. But Bush needed these 2 lies to get approval of the American people to go to war.

The pro-war people argue that it is good that we went into war even though Iraq had no weapons or a connection with Al-Qaeda/9-11, because Saddam was such an evil dictator and it is good that we removed him from power. For people who believe that the war is a good idea for this one reason, it is still the wrong war, wrong place, wrong time for numerous reasons:

1) Iraq was never a direct threat to the U.S.

2) There are other nations that have evil dictators AND nuclear weapons AND are threats to the U.S. (North Korea) So we should focus on North Korea and not waste our time, money, and troops on Iraq.

3) Besides North Korea, another direct threat to the U.S. is Al-Qaeda. We should have sent more troops into the Afghan-Pakistan border. President Musharaff is not allowing U.S. troops into Pakistan. However there is a region in Northern Pakistan that is not controlled by the Pakistani government. Rather, it is controlled by radicals who support Al-Qaeda, the Taliban, and are against the U.S. Osama Bin Laden is probably in this region or near. Now Bush should have worked with the Pakistan government and focused on trying to get U.S. troops into this region of Pakistan only.

4) Although I don't support a war against Iran, I must say that Iran is a much more dangerous country then Iraq. Before 9-11, it let many of the hijackers pass through it's country while knowing who they were. Also, we all know that Iran HAS nuclear weapons as opposed to Iraq.

5) Bush had no exit strategy for the Iraq war. More people have died after he declared that major combat is over in Iraq.

6) The cost of this war is enormous. Not only do we have to pay right now, taxpayers will be paying for the war for many years to come, money that we could have used to pay for other things. The cost of the war is defintely driving down the American economy. Check out this link: http://costofwar.com/

7) As of today there have been 1,978 coalition deaths in Iraq, 1,786 of them Americans. The death toll of the Iraqis themselves has been ignored, but as of today there have been an estimated 23,140-26,189 Iraqi deaths. I feel bad for all the soldiers, they were brave enough to risk their own lives for their countries. But I even feel worse for these more then 20,000 Iraqis which include many men, women, children (including many new-born babies), because what did these people do to put their lives at risk and end? I remember the Bush administration saying that they will only be attacking political buildings of the Iraqi government, and will avoid the civilian population.

8) One last point: If the U.S. has WMD's, then they shouldn't force other countries to disarm. The U.S. is a bully.
 
1) But it did pose a direct threat too strategic interests, it could also be argued that it was a persistent threat in that he retained the capacity of the WMD programs and had every intention of restarting said programs after sanctions were lifted.

2) The fact of the matter is that North Korea is attempting to hold the world too ransom yet again. Because of the situation there it is not plausible to initiate a war to depose Kim Jong-Il, in that situation diplomacy is by far the best option. Iraq also represents a convergence of interests; it removes the threat posed by Saddam once and for all. It can enable democratic reforms in the region and puts increased pressure on the despotic governments from their own people. That is not a post-belum argument, it was right there from the beginning ~ just look at Bush's state of the union adress illustrating that key point before the war even began.

3) The tribal regions of Pakistan are still regions of Pakistan. Putting US troops in the country could inflame the situation. Musharraf already has enough threats against him and surrendering Pakistans sovereignty to US troops could be the straw that breaks the camels back ~ that is not a good situation.

4) We do not know that Iran has nuclear weapons, we do know that they have an advanced nuclear weapons program and that they have been playing the same script book of being a bit more bold before demanding concessions. There is no need to go to war with Iran, a popular revolution can be initiated and a democratic Iraq is crutial too that.

5) I think that the entire concept of a guaranteed and set in stone exit strategy aptly demonstrates what Osama Bin Laden said about the weakness of the US. How if a few casualties are inflicted upon your forces you will leave without much of a fight. Have a strategy to leave ~ which has been hinted at, with troop reductions and adjustments ~ but only do so when certain targets have been met. Letting Iraq collapse would only create a lot more danger in the long term.

6) War costs money, it costs a lot of money.

7) The war against the Baathist regime is over, they were deposed quickly and adequately. It is a different type of war too wipe out Jihadists and Baathist Remnants, it is one where your enemy uses the civilian population as human sheilds and works to maximise civilian casualties as a propaganda tool. It is a shitty situation but please bear in mind the cost of peace when dealing with Iraq ~ the number of innocent people who died because of Saddam, the mass graves, the children who were starved under oil for food, the campaigns of the secret police.

8) As opposed too innocent as a lamb Saddam, who would never use his CBR weapons for nefarious purposes?
 
the U.S. have many more problems then a dictator who poses no threat to them. this war was/is/will be pointless. when we went into Iraq, most people supported it, now the war approval is less then 50%, and as time goes on it is going to sink more. the bush administration is messing with our minds, and as time goes on more and more people will realize that.
 
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