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Old 02-15-2002, 08:55 AM   #1
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New global warming plan

President Bush has unveiled his new global warming plan, and not surprisingly, it seems to be completely inadequate and halfway voluntary. And Australia is backing it! Are we now fighting a war against the environment, I wonder?
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Old 02-15-2002, 10:19 AM   #2
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I'm in the process of reading more about it.. But from my initial reactions, it shares the same 'pollution credits', that the worthless Kyoto Treaty had.. but it protects our Economy with priority... It seems to be a pretty good system.. in that it allows us to reduce emissions, clean up the environment, but when necessary, protect our own interests.

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And just to remind anyone that's going to rip us for not ratifying the Kyoto Treaty.. At the time we dropped out of it.. NO ONE had signed it either.
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Old 02-15-2002, 12:07 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally posted by Klodomir:
Are we now fighting a war against the environment, I wonder?
it does seem so
I'm actually quite surprised
I know quite a few people who study/studied economy and almost all of us thought that we had reached the point where everyone knew that the time has come to let the ecology prevail over economy
since we are just about done with ruining our entire ecological system

I guess we were all wrong though

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Old 02-15-2002, 02:38 PM   #4
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So lets figure out our "bashing" options:

1) Continue to bash Bush.
2) Continue to bash Bush and America.
3) Continue to bash Bush, and America, and anyone contributing to the oh-so-important American Economy

4) Same as #3) above, add Australia
5) Bash Australia only
6) Combine # 1)and 5)
7) Combine # 2) and 5)
8) All of the above

WoW we really have our options! This should be REAL fun

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Old 02-15-2002, 06:04 PM   #5
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okay, now I'm really sick and tired of the current practise that anyone who does not agree with certain views is being accused of "bashing" over here

if you can't handle a discussion then go away or I will make sure you'll have to go away
no matter who your friends are around here
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Old 02-15-2002, 07:07 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by Salome:
okay, now I'm really sick and tired of the current practise that anyone who does not agree with certain views is being accused of "bashing" over here

if you can't handle a discussion then go away or I will make sure you'll have to go away
no matter who your friends are around here
Of course, none of us really have any say when you drop a Threat of that magnitude.. the HORROR is just calling out something before it is sure to happen in this thread.. He did not accuse anyone of 'BASHING' anything.. Read his post.. He just gave those select few who continuously take every opportunity presented to shit on America some cues to take up on...

Actually, It was quite brilliant.. Calling the shots before they are Fired.

Ruthish if I may.

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Old 02-15-2002, 09:12 PM   #7
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Salome I don't think you got the joke.....
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Old 02-16-2002, 02:49 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lemonite:
Actually, It was quite brilliant.. Calling the shots before they are Fired.
It's just provocation. You don't have to be anywhere near brilliant to accomplish that.
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Old 02-16-2002, 03:19 AM   #9
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What's your problem, Horror? Why don't you return when you've formed an independent opinion? And if you're going to accuse people of bashing anyone, please post specific names so they can defend themselves. I know you're not talking about me.
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Old 02-16-2002, 11:44 AM   #10
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Just a couple of points, Slomey is quite a bright fella. He's essentially coming from the same place the HORROR is, where he's plain jack of all the shit fights.

And also, the Aus PM has his head wedged firmly up the American Prez's arse. Bush could say Im gonna make farting illegal and lil Johnny would reply "Fantastic idea, can I just give your arse a little kiss while Im here?"
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Old 02-16-2002, 11:49 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lemonite:
but it protects our Economy with priority...
As usual, business interests come before the environment. Apparently, the environment is only worth protecting during prosperous times.

What a scam. What people never seem to get is that business never has enough profits, according to business.

Melon

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Old 02-16-2002, 01:57 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon:
As usual, business interests come before the environment. Apparently, the environment is only worth protecting during prosperous times.

What a scam. What people never seem to get is that business never has enough profits, according to business.

Melon

Melon.. Are you saying that you would approve of a treaty or some sort of plan that would have HUUUUUGE economic RAmifications that would very quite possibly put us in a Depression?....

It's not as simple as 'we're putting the economy over the environment', we are putting our interests.. Which do include protecting the environment.. but our interests as a stable nation above anything else.. and if that may cause us to protect our economy.. and that happens to be at the expense of the environment, then I say all the better for it.. Because we still have a plan to protect the environment.. reduce emissions et al..

Bush's plan gives a realistic and step wise plan to help in the clean up of the environment while not wreaking havoc on our country's stability.

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Old 02-16-2002, 11:21 PM   #13
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I am not an economist or a perfect-ecologist who can measure with numbers the effects of the american industry (wich is responsile for 25% of the pollution on the Earth), but the effets of pollution are, in my corner of the Earth, getting more and more intense.

A read a lot of newspapers and the overwhelming majority of editorials/quotes of ecologists outside the United States say that this plan, the "Bush Plan" will not work and the pollution will increase during the next I0 years dramatically. Well, if its the case, here I might see no winter again in a place where winter have a reputation of being the toughest... where's the cold and the snow this winter here ???? I can't imagine in I0 years...

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Old 02-16-2002, 11:45 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lemonite:
Melon.. Are you saying that you would approve of a treaty or some sort of plan that would have HUUUUUGE economic RAmifications that would very quite possibly put us in a Depression?....
This is just rhetoric fed to you from big business and their president. What it comes down to is that business never wants to be held accountable for its actions. If they wanted to drill oil in endangered species habitats, they would go for it. If it weren't for government regulation, we'd still be driving 7 mpg gas guzzlers with rear engines that explode on impact.

Quote:
It's not as simple as 'we're putting the economy over the environment', we are putting our interests.. Which do include protecting the environment.. but our interests as a stable nation above anything else.. and if that may cause us to protect our economy.. and that happens to be at the expense of the environment, then I say all the better for it.. Because we still have a plan to protect the environment.. reduce emissions et al..
This is just a pathetic excuse to circumvent EPA regulations, which, must I remind you, business was trying to back out of during the "great prosperity" of the last decade. They're milking this recession for all it is worth, including piling on tax cuts that have been adding up from the last recessions from the past two decades.

Quote:
Bush's plan gives a realistic and step wise plan to help in the clean up of the environment while not wreaking havoc on our country's stability.
Have you ever thought that environmental regulations would actually "create" jobs? Business is going to have to have *someone* to fix their company to comply. It may be that they might need to hire more engineers to make their products more compliant, they might have to contract out companies to fix up their factory, etc. What it comes down to is that business doesn't want to ever upgrade.

Of course, I know how it is. "Pollution" is just that proverbial liberal made up thing that no one has to deal with. Right? Well, for those who do have to deal with it, we shouldn't be tying economic prosperity with common sense and responsibility. That would be like saying that schools should dumb down their curriculum during times of economic recessions just to crank out more graduates. The unfortunate fact is that we all live just once, and pollution, once released, cannot just simply be erased.

Melon

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Old 02-16-2002, 11:56 PM   #15
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Melon, you do make some good points, but when you say that the regulations will create jobs, it will be jobs at the expense of the current business jobs, cutting emissions.. is going to initially require cutting production.. There's just no way around it at the moment, because yes, a lot of technology exists, but it apparently has not been installed, so the production of the business is going to drop significantly due to the initial constraints of immediately conforming to the new standards..
However, a sort of collaborative movement may work.. But then of course the businesses aren't going to want to pay for this... Which you did state, and I think we'd all state..

It's just a big expansive case of the prisoners dilemma... No business is going to want to go through all the mess it will have to .. in order to conform to drastic new standards unless EVERYONE Else does.. And this includes foreign nations.. This was the big big problem with the Kyoto Treaty with us..

I think that how Bush has it set.. The Fixed Limits are gone... is a much more realistic and workable approach.. Until the methods to drastically reduce the emissions in factories and transportation are efficiently created at least.. He's setting a goal.. 18% over ten years, not wrecking the economy in the process, and allowing for future policy to reflect technological advancements.

And until that happens, no one's going to be willing to change at their expense while others are not having to be subjected to such changes...

And How can you accuse those of my thought to be 'Milking' .. yes. I think that's what you wrote.. 'Milking the recession'.. I may have misunderstood, actually I hope I did, but That could not be further from the truth.. I don't know why people haven't realized that tax cuts do work.. Anyways.. another thread.. It is the people from your position, the liberals who want to .. if I may use your term.. 'Milk' this recession, there is nothing they would like more than for this recession to continue until .. at least election time.. I have a hard time believing that you don't see that.. I mean look at what Daschle just recently did.. He STOPPED the stimulus plan.. He is trying to shut down this economy.. Don't ever accuse us of 'Milking this Recession'.. Especially with the latest Daschle screw up.. no one's going to buy that..

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[This message has been edited by Lemonite (edited 02-16-2002).]
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