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Old 02-17-2002, 07:12 AM   #16
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Originally posted by Lemonite:
It's just a big expansive case of the prisoners dilemma... No business is going to want to go through all the mess it will have to .. in order to conform to drastic new standards unless EVERYONE Else does.. And this includes foreign nations.. This was the big big problem with the Kyoto Treaty with us..
Why? Because the foreign industrialised nations do want to comply? Or is it because foreign nations already have some measures for protecting the environment and that the US wants to profit by not having regulations?
I mean, the US has got (one of) the lowest oil productivity of the Western world (that is, the US produces less with one barrel of oil than other countries do). Should they have participated in the Kyoto talks new regulations would have probably called for using less oil (as an effect). This would result in creating a larger efficiency, hence a larger oil productivity. I don't think this would cost (many) jobs as the companies would face lower oil costs which would offset the costs of having to comply to the new regulations.

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I think that how Bush has it set.. The Fixed Limits are gone... is a much more realistic and workable approach.. Until the methods to drastically reduce the emissions in factories and transportation are efficiently created at least.. He's setting a goal.. 18% over ten years, not wrecking the economy in the process, and allowing for future policy to reflect technological advancements.
Bush's goal with a 18% reduction is very deceiving. The Kyoto treaty wants to ensure a reduction of the total emission of toxic gases. Bush wants to reduce the emission intensity, where emission intensity is equal to the total emission divided by GNP. This means that if the US economy will grow with 30% the next ten years (as it is projected at the moment) then the total emission will grow with 12%. Said differently, Bush proposes a relative reduction of the toxic gases (from the 183,000 kg per $1 million GNP to 151,000 kg per $1 million GNP), not an absolute reduction (as the Kyoto treaty proposes).

Anyway, president Bush's proposal for voluntary reduction isn't new. In the 1990s such a proposal was also made by governor Bush in Texas. Apparently, it didn't work (wasn't Houston the smog-capital of the USA in the mid-1990s?).

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I try to kick the truth, not just to make friends

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Old 02-17-2002, 12:25 PM   #17
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Other countries do want to comply?...

One Word.. CHINA

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Old 02-17-2002, 01:06 PM   #18
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And How can you accuse those of my thought to be 'Milking' .. yes. I think that's what you wrote.. 'Milking the recession'.. I may have misunderstood, actually I hope I did, but That could not be further from the truth..
Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan has openly stated that Bush's "economic stimulus" packages are likely not even necessary, as key economic indicators are showing. He has stood by this and didn't lower interest rates at the last Federal Reserve meeting.

Our economy is not in that bad of shape. Who is bitching? Stockholders, as usual. Call it a revolutionary idea, but I don't think that our economic health should revolve around a system that is little more than socially acceptable gambling.

Recessions usually do not hurt big business in the slightest. Companies as big as Ford Motor Company have been around for decades, with some even weathering the Great Depression. This is just a spit in a large economic ocean. Why do companies love recessions?

1) It weeds out weaker competitors, positioning themselves to emerge with a greater market position.
2) It allows them to reinvest their stock portfolios at bargain prices.
3) It allows them to lobby favors from government, like tax breaks and other "stimulus" packages.
4) It allows them to restructure their business to be more cost efficient.

Bush, from the beginning, has been talking down this economy, making it sound sicker than it is, as an excuse to give wealthy and business tax breaks. Bush just threw a bone at everyone else. Those $300 and $600 checks from last year were advances on this year's rebate checks. Expect your average rebate check to be $300 to $600 lighter this year, depending on what you received. Such a tax break!

Melon

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"He had lived through an age when men and women with energy and ruthlessness but without much ability or persistence excelled. And even though most of them had gone under, their ignorance had confused Roy, making him wonder whether the things he had striven to learn, and thought of as 'culture,' were irrelevant. Everything was supposed to be the same: commercials, Beethoven's late quartets, pop records, shopfronts, Freud, multi-coloured hair. Greatness, comparison, value, depth: gone, gone, gone. Anything could give some pleasure; he saw that. But not everything provided the sustenance of a deeper understanding." - Hanif Kureishi, Love in a Blue Time
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Old 02-17-2002, 02:19 PM   #19
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Originally posted by melon:
Bush, from the beginning, has been talking down this economy, making it sound sicker than it is, as an excuse to give wealthy and business tax breaks. Bush just threw a bone at everyone else.

Melon

I still am amazed at your reliance on such things as 'smiley faces' to try and emphasize a point other than using words.. Anyways, Of course Bush has been saying that the economy was bad.. even before he was elected.. THAT's so the liberal media wouldn't be able to paint this recession as a 'BUSH' Recession..

We all know that the economy isn't that bad.. the recession is one of the smallest ever recorded.. but the liberals have never even been saying that. I'm surprised for you to 'switch' gears on us and say that now the economy isn't that bad, when All the liberals were saying that the economy was in terrible shape..

Yes, it has been pointed out here before that the recession.. by all 'legal' terms is over.. of course there's going to be aftermath, layoffs, reduced profits for a bit, but give it just a little bit of time, and it'll come back in full force.

Anyways, Tax cuts aren't just immediate things, the real effect won't be seen today or tomorrow, but again, in time, the difference will be noticed heavily... And the whole reason he cut them in the first place was due to the enormous surplus we had from the tax rates that were standing.. It was so ridiculous, and so he did what he was supposed to do... give the surplus back to those who created it...

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Old 02-17-2002, 05:20 PM   #20
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Originally posted by Lemonite:
I still am amazed at your reliance on such things as 'smiley faces' to try and emphasize a point other than using words..
Stop arguing like a little child and get to the point.

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Anyways, Of course Bush has been saying that the economy was bad.. even before he was elected.. THAT's so the liberal media wouldn't be able to paint this recession as a 'BUSH' Recession..
It is always funny how the Bush family brings out the worst in economies. Reagan had two recessions himself.

Quote:
We all know that the economy isn't that bad.. the recession is one of the smallest ever recorded.. but the liberals have never even been saying that. I'm surprised for you to 'switch' gears on us and say that now the economy isn't that bad, when All the liberals were saying that the economy was in terrible shape..
Please. Bush has been the one pushing for the mega stimulus packages, far more than is really needed.

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Yes, it has been pointed out here before that the recession.. by all 'legal' terms is over..
I never read it being declared "over." As far as I know, we are still in one, but it is supposedly ending.

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of course there's going to be aftermath, layoffs, reduced profits for a bit, but give it just a little bit of time, and it'll come back in full force.
Exactly. That's why these economic stimulus packages are unnecessary. "Time" is really all you need. For a bunch of businesses who cry and whine about the need to end government interference, they always demand corporate welfare.

Quote:
Anyways, Tax cuts aren't just immediate things, the real effect won't be seen today or tomorrow, but again, in time, the difference will be noticed heavily...
You are right. The predictions are that Bush's fuzzy math won't add up and we'll be amassing a gigantic debt.

Quote:
And the whole reason he cut them in the first place was due to the enormous surplus we had from the tax rates that were standing..
And the surplus is gone. If Bush had been smart, he would have suspended his tax cut until the economy recovered, rather than demand their permanance.

Quote:
It was so ridiculous, and so he did what he was supposed to do... give the surplus back to those who created it...
"Those who created it." I love how we assume that "business" was the one who created the surplus. Have you ever seen the breakdown of where the government's money comes from? For every dollar, about 50 cents comes from individuals, while 10 cents come from corporations. If he was really sincere with that piece of rhetoric, he would have sharply cut payroll taxes, rather than handing out money to the top 1% and big business. Business is nothing without the labor behind it.

I'm sure that that 10 cents will reduce to less than 5 cents by the time he leaves office. Then the next recession will come and business will demand their last five cents back as "economic stimulus." In the meantime, we'll be spending trillions on death lasers and an unending "war on terrorism." Then, as the baby boomers get older and need more money for Social Security and Medicare, we will only have two options: run at a severe deficit or raise taxes. Considering Republicans never raise corporate taxes, it will be us that take the brunt of the eventual tax hikes. It's only ironic that, during the "prosperous" 1950s, corporations paid 90 cents for every dollar of federal income.

The math just doesn't add up, and no business would reasonably take this much risk. Unlike business, which can declare bankruptcy as easy as stealing candy from a baby, it would be far disastrous if the same fate befell the American government. Look at Russia with the aftermath of the Soviet Union's bankruptcy. Russia is not projected to recover fully for at least another generation or two.
But we need those tax cuts, right?

Melon

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"He had lived through an age when men and women with energy and ruthlessness but without much ability or persistence excelled. And even though most of them had gone under, their ignorance had confused Roy, making him wonder whether the things he had striven to learn, and thought of as 'culture,' were irrelevant. Everything was supposed to be the same: commercials, Beethoven's late quartets, pop records, shopfronts, Freud, multi-coloured hair. Greatness, comparison, value, depth: gone, gone, gone. Anything could give some pleasure; he saw that. But not everything provided the sustenance of a deeper understanding." - Hanif Kureishi, Love in a Blue Time

[This message has been edited by melon (edited 02-17-2002).]
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Old 02-17-2002, 07:46 PM   #21
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The recession is officially over, our last period showed an increase in economic growth.. Consider yourself informed...

Bush did not start this recession, nor has he influenced its continuation.. That was the terrorists.

Even with the tax cuts included in the budget, there is a Projected SURPLUS in the 10 year forcast.. which should manifest itself in a couple of years.. I've posted this before, but apparently you chose not to listen to it.

And with the 18% reduction, linked with the output of the economy.. yes, those who don't pay attention may not realize exactly what it is saying, I however, do, and what he is proposing is still a reduction over what would be out there in the atmosphere.. As we've all seen.. the best way to cut emissions is for a country to go into an economic shithole, just like Russia...

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Old 02-17-2002, 07:51 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lemonite:
the best way to cut emissions is for a country to go into an economic shithole, just like Russia...

Actually the best way for a country to cut harmful emissions is for its businesses and government to invest in energy-saving technologies or alternative forms of energy.
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Old 02-17-2002, 08:08 PM   #23
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Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees:
Actually the best way for a country to cut harmful emissions is for its businesses and government to invest in energy-saving technologies or alternative forms of energy.
Allow me to rephrase with best.. 'Easiest'

And to you point.. you might add...

Actually.. they must be economically efficient as well.

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Old 02-17-2002, 09:41 PM   #24
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You can talk all night and day about the economics, but the basic fact is that the world is going to shit, look outside your window, god, the off-licence near my uni house has a lake behind it nowadays, it could be flooded soon!!! This is beer we are talkin about you foools!!! Stop the madness now before it is too late!!!
But seriously, there is a lake there, there is flooding all over the place and fucked up weather conditions, fuck the economics, ya'll ain't gonna be worried bout the economics when you got no world to enjoy your life on. It is that simple, and the Kyoto agreement was damn feasible, a bit less greed and we'd be looking at a bit of hope. There's a solution to almost everything, and jaysus, if it gets that bad, I know I would gladly do what I had to.

And haha....ha at the Russia shit, at least they don't have feckin hurricanes and floods to deal with(yeah I know they got fucked up weather too, always have)

And Lemonite......
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Old 02-17-2002, 10:11 PM   #25
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Why is George W. Bush still serving as President. Every time I read ANYTHING about his policies I start to cry. I'm being sarcastic, but still...come on?!

Another thing that pisses me off is that nobody is actually contesting Bush's policies. Sure, there are a few meagerly populated activist organizations, but why aren't more people speaking out and putting pressure on the President?

I ask this question, but I know the answer. I know that people are afraid that criticizing the President or anyone in his cabinet will ultimately label themselves as "un-American". What's funny, is that those people calling everyone "un-patriotic" are essentially wanting everyone in our country to bow before Bush as if he were a god that could do no wrong.

This is scary! Not only are we "watching" our own environment wither away...or should I say, be drilled away, but we are also afraid to take "a stand", whether it be in favor or not. I'm completely with Bono on this issue. Indifference is the feeling we must rebel against.

In the end, the Earth's environment will still be here. Up until the very last second before the Earth is engulfed by the sun, our eco-system, not matter how alter it may appear, will still be here. Humans, on the other hand will be dead, with nothing left but their bones.

Mother Nature doesn't need our protection. Our future generations need our protection.

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Old 02-17-2002, 11:02 PM   #26
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And haha....ha at the Russia shit, at least they don't have feckin hurricanes and floods to deal with(yeah I know they got fucked up weather too, always have)

The Kyoto treaty was going to f#ck our country economically.. Everyone agrees on that, and it was not a feasible option in our eyes. Maybe for ya'll, as I've seen eggs still sitting out of refridgeration.. which no doubtedly shot off CFC's in a photysynthetical manner.. on a shelf in grocery stores in Ballybunion.. CUz ya'll don't have any emissions to even worry about.. (A short and drastic statement, but due to studying, all that is needed).. Anyways.. When we pulled out of it.. NO COUNTRY HAD RATIFIED THE KYOTO TREATY... Explain that?

The world is not going to shit, It's a great place to live, I'm thankful for every day here, and even for Interference.. Hahaha.. just a hobby, but still a place where we can talk and discuss.. something many people would do anything to have this opportunity.

Also, I'll be the first to say that George W. is not some god immune to criticism.. There's a big big issue that is practically a nonissue to everyone in this country.. Campaign Finance REform.. something that is not needed, and the proposals are violations of our first ammendment constitutional right.. Now.. if this bill somehow passes to Bush's desk, and he does NOT veto it.. i'll be the first to call out this travesty.

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[This message has been edited by Lemonite (edited 02-17-2002).]
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Old 02-17-2002, 11:07 PM   #27
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Maybe for ya'll, as I've seen eggs still sitting out of refridgeration.. which no doubtedly shot off CFC's in a photysynthetical manner..
Roll call...



Melon

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"He had lived through an age when men and women with energy and ruthlessness but without much ability or persistence excelled. And even though most of them had gone under, their ignorance had confused Roy, making him wonder whether the things he had striven to learn, and thought of as 'culture,' were irrelevant. Everything was supposed to be the same: commercials, Beethoven's late quartets, pop records, shopfronts, Freud, multi-coloured hair. Greatness, comparison, value, depth: gone, gone, gone. Anything could give some pleasure; he saw that. But not everything provided the sustenance of a deeper understanding." - Hanif Kureishi, Love in a Blue Time
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Old 02-17-2002, 11:35 PM   #28
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Roll call...



Melon

Melon, It saddens to see you resorting to such childish antics, even further below anything I have ever dropped.

This has become nothing more than one of those famous pissing contests you are Well known for.. However correct or Off You may be.

Anthony.. Here is your role model.

Moderators.. Even I, the epitome of a proud American.. who for effect will rant and randomize here, am embarrassed to be a part of this thread.. I think it has had its day.

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Melon, we continue to pray for you.

[This message has been edited by Lemonite (edited 02-17-2002).]
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Old 02-17-2002, 11:41 PM   #29
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Hmm...deja vu...

6) if your opponent consistently overturns your "correct" stories (anything told by Rush Limbaugh), use ad hominem attacks.

Pardon my embitterness, but your posts are often so hysterically incomprehensible, I cannot help but give stupid responses to them.

Yes, this thread has had its day.

Melon

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"He had lived through an age when men and women with energy and ruthlessness but without much ability or persistence excelled. And even though most of them had gone under, their ignorance had confused Roy, making him wonder whether the things he had striven to learn, and thought of as 'culture,' were irrelevant. Everything was supposed to be the same: commercials, Beethoven's late quartets, pop records, shopfronts, Freud, multi-coloured hair. Greatness, comparison, value, depth: gone, gone, gone. Anything could give some pleasure; he saw that. But not everything provided the sustenance of a deeper understanding." - Hanif Kureishi, Love in a Blue Time
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Old 02-18-2002, 01:13 AM   #30
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And also, the Aus PM has his head wedged firmly up the American Prez's arse. Bush could say Im gonna make farting illegal and lil Johnny would reply "Fantastic idea, can I just give your arse a little kiss while Im here?"
Don't bash my country! You're obviously not very smart! You're a terrorist! You don't know what you are talking about! We are the best greatest country in the world! We should make farting illegal! Johnny's right! Johnny's always right! Australia is always right! If you don't like it move to Communist China! Fart all you want there! Australia is the greatest! Greatest country in the whole world! Don't shit on Johnny!
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