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Old 02-23-2007, 11:58 AM   #46
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Originally posted by AEON


It actually does seem that the gov makes a sudden move to his right at the same time Kennedy is hit with the first bullet.

The Governor's Testimony to the Warren Commission was that the first bullet fired did not hit him. He turned to the right and was then shot. If you see him turning to the right, it would mean the President was hit by the first shot fired and the Governor was hit by a different bullet. If this is true there had to be more than one shooter. If his testimony is to be believed, then clearly, one bullet did not hit both him and the President.


http://history-matters.com/archive/j...port_0068b.htm
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Old 02-23-2007, 12:14 PM   #47
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Originally posted by Dreadsox


The Governor's Testimony to the Warren Commission was that the first bullet fired did not hit him. He turned to the right and was then shot. If you see him turning to the right, it would mean the President was hit by the first shot fired and the Governor was hit by a different bullet. If this is true there had to be more than one shooter. If his testimony is to be believed, then clearly, one bullet did not hit both him and the President.


http://history-matters.com/archive/j...port_0068b.htm
Further Testimony ignored comes from Secret Service Agent Kellerman. He chillingly describes hearing the first shot, hearing the president shout "My God I am hit." and then he continues saying a " flurry of shells came into the car"

This is the Presidents own secret service agent describing a "flurry of shells" .

The Warren Commission concluded the first bullet missed the car entirely. The second bullet hit Kennedy and Connally and the thrid was the head shot.

The Secret Serviceman and Connally both indicate that Kennedy was hit with the first shot. Connally indicates that he turned as did the agent. Then a flurry of bullets including the head shot, and the bullet that Connally claims hit him.

http://history-matters.com/archive/j...Vol2_0041b.htm

When questioned as to the meaning of Flurry....the agent testifies at least two more bullets came in almost at the same time. Impossible for Oswald to have done alone. Impossible if there were only three shots and one missed the vehicle.

And the chilling testimony of the veteran agent comes on the bottom of this page....IGNORED by the Commission....

But Mr. Spector, if President Kennedy had by all reports four wounds, Governor Connally three, there have got to be more than three shots."

This is his sworn testimony before the Warren Commission. The agent riding in the limo with the President.

http://forum.interference.com/showth...15#post4300615
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Old 02-23-2007, 01:09 PM   #48
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Double V, it was the "not enough action" aspect of the footage. I've seen Jackie smiling and waving plenty of times.
By the way, how's your brother, Vic Vega? I can't believe he cut off that cop's ear!
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Old 02-23-2007, 01:24 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox


Further Testimony ignored comes from Secret Service Agent Kellerman. He chillingly describes hearing the first shot, hearing the president shout "My God I am hit." and then he continues saying a " flurry of shells came into the car"

This is the Presidents own secret service agent describing a "flurry of shells" .

The Warren Commission concluded the first bullet missed the car entirely. The second bullet hit Kennedy and Connally and the thrid was the head shot.

The Secret Serviceman and Connally both indicate that Kennedy was hit with the first shot. Connally indicates that he turned as did the agent. Then a flurry of bullets including the head shot, and the bullet that Connally claims hit him.

http://history-matters.com/archive/j...Vol2_0041b.htm

When questioned as to the meaning of Flurry....the agent testifies at least two more bullets came in almost at the same time. Impossible for Oswald to have done alone. Impossible if there were only three shots and one missed the vehicle.

And the chilling testimony of the veteran agent comes on the bottom of this page....IGNORED by the Commission....

But Mr. Spector, if President Kennedy had by all reports four wounds, Governor Connally three, there have got to be more than three shots."

This is his sworn testimony before the Warren Commission. The agent riding in the limo with the President.

http://forum.interference.com/showth...15#post4300615
Just to play devil's advocate - in a time like this can we truly ever recall minute details? In an extremely stressful situation - it seems our minds enter into a different realm - some things slow down, others speed up; and some things get out of order in our memory.

I guess what I'm saying is that personal testimony from someone under fire should not necessarily be taken as the be all and end all.
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Old 02-23-2007, 03:50 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally posted by MrPryck2U
Double V, it was the "not enough action" aspect of the footage. I've seen Jackie smiling and waving plenty of times.
By the way, how's your brother, Vic Vega? I can't believe he cut off that cop's ear!
Ah, yes

He's fine.
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Old 02-23-2007, 07:26 PM   #51
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This is a great photo that comes from the Mary Ferrel Foundation.

Notice the Driver is turned looking over his right. Notice the president not grabbing his neck, but more like pulling his clothes....

Anyone here besides me had hot brass from a bullet go down their shirt?

Notice the policeman looking to his left. The Book Depository is behind these people. At this point it does not look like they are too worried about someone shooting above them. Notice the man in the hard hat....not looking at the book depository but at the Dal Tex building. I have not found anything official yet about the man. I have his name, and reports that he claims there were 8 shots fired. He also claimed there were three different places the shots came from.

The last thing I laugh about...but if you look at the doorway of the Depository....I see L. Harvey Oswald standing in the doorway.

HEHE
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Old 02-23-2007, 07:38 PM   #52
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I also recognized the man as Oswald

The reason why he might heard eight bullets may be the echo.
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Old 02-23-2007, 08:35 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally posted by Vincent Vega
I also recognized the man as Oswald

The reason why he might heard eight bullets may be the echo.
Could very well be the reason.....

However, if Oswald is in the doorway...who is shooting?
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Old 02-23-2007, 09:11 PM   #54
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^*whistling the x-files melody*
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Old 02-23-2007, 10:20 PM   #55
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This topic remains sadly entertaining after all these years.

Dread, what's your take on the whole notion that the Zapruder film may have been faked?

http://www.assassinationscience.com/...tro/index.html
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Old 02-24-2007, 06:33 AM   #56
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wait is that really Oswald or someone that looks like him?
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Old 02-24-2007, 06:53 AM   #57
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Originally posted by Chizip
wait is that really Oswald or someone that looks like him?
There are people hwo believe it is him. I do not. Oswald claims he was in the break room at the time of the assasination. If he were really there he would have claimed he was there.
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Old 02-24-2007, 07:03 AM   #58
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Originally posted by Judah
This topic remains sadly entertaining after all these years.

Dread, what's your take on the whole notion that the Zapruder film may have been faked?

http://www.assassinationscience.com/...tro/index.html
And this is where I get upset.

There are people within the community who put their theories before the evidence and the things that do not fit are faked.

I am not that extreme in my beliefs.

There are already people claiming that the video Justin posted is a fake.

So I personally do not believe Zapruder is faked. What frustrates me more than anything is destroyed evidence. For example, the Army for some reason had a file on Oswald that was never turned over to the Warren Commission. Oswald was in the Marines, so why did the Army have a file on him? My is it proves he was trained as a linguist and was being used to go into Russia as a defector for some reason.

Other evidence that is missing....photographs of the autopsy. There are two people (three) who claim that there were photos in which they ran a rod through the back wound to the throat wound. This would have demonstrated the exact path the bullet took through the President if this is what happened. Why is this important? The Dr. who performed the tracheotomy on the President at Parkland Hospital claimed that the hole he widened for the tracheotomy was an ENTRANCE wound not an exit wound. For Oswald to be the only shooter, it has to be an exit wound.

Missing evidence to me, sealed evidence, lost evidence....THE PRESIDENTS BRAIN is missing. Lost. I am pretty sure it is with the casket that Robert Kennedy had dumped in the ocean. But this is important. The fact that John Connally still has a bullet fragment or two in his body is important. If there are too many fragments, there was more than three bullets fired that hit. Impossible for Oswald to do it alone.

This is what frustrates me. There are too many shoddy things, too many sealed things, too many things disappeared that cuase wild theories....and then ...people claim the evidence we have is faked.
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Old 02-24-2007, 07:44 AM   #59
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Originally posted by AEON

I guess what I'm saying is that personal testimony from someone under fire should not necessarily be taken as the be all and end all.
Oswald was using a bolt action rifle.

His first shot would have been his most accurate because of the operation of chambering a new round. (The commission says the first shot missed)

Connoly testifies the first shot hit the President, not him.

Greer the driver testifies:

[Q]Mr. GREER. The last two seemed to be just simultaneously, one behind the other, but I don't recollect just how much, how many seconds were between the two. I couldn't really say. [/Q]

Kellerman

[Q]Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes. Good. There was enough for me to verify that the man was hit. So, in the same motion I come right back and grabbed the speaker and said to the driver, "Let's get out of here; we are hit," and grabbed the mike and I said, "Lawson, this is Kellerman,"--this is Lawson, who is in the front car. "We are hit; get us to the hospital immediately." Now, in the seconds that I talked just now, a flurry of shells come into the car. I then looked back and this time Mr. Hill, who was riding on the left front bumper of our followup car, was on the back trunk of that car; the President was sideways down into. the back seat. [/Q]

Mrs. Connally

[Q]Then I don't know how soon, it seems to me it was very soon, that I heard a noise, and not being an expert rifleman, I was not aware that it was a rifle. It was just a frightening noise, and it came from the right.
I turned over my right shoulder and looked back, and saw the President as he had both hands at his neck.
Mr. SPECTER. And you are indicating with your own hands, two hands crossing over gripping your own neck?
Mrs. CONNALLY. Yes; and it seemed to me there was--he made no utterance, no cry. I saw no blood, no anything. It was just sort of nothing, the expression on his face, and he just sort of slumped down.
Then very soon there was the second shot that hit John. As the first shot was hit, and I turned to look at the same time, I recall John saying, "Oh, no, no, no." Then there was a second shot, and it hit John, and as he recoiled to the right, just crumpled like a wounded animal to the right, he said, "My God, they are going to kill us all."[/Q]



Governor Connally

[Q]We had just made the turn, well, when I heard what I thought was a shot. I heard this noise which I immediately took to be a rifle shot. I instinctively turned to my right because the sound appeared to come from over my right


132



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

shoulder, so I turned to look back over my right shoulder, and I saw nothing unusual except just people in the crowd, but I did not catch the President in the corner of my eye, and I was interested, because once I heard the shot in my own mind I identified it as a rifle shot, and I immediately--the only thought that crossed my mind was that this is an assassination attempt.
So I looked, failing to see him, I was turning to look back over my left shoulder into the back seat, but I never got that far in my turn. I got about in the position I am in now facing you, looking a little bit to the left of center, and then I felt like someone had hit me in the back.
Mr. SPECTER. What is the best estimate that you have as to the time span between the sound of the first shot and the feeling of someone hitting you in the back which you just described?
Governor CONNALLY. A very, very brief span of time. Again my trend of thought just happened to be, I suppose along this line, I immediately thought that this--that I had been shot. I knew it when I just looked down and I was covered with blood, and the thought immediately passed through my mind that there were either two or three people involved or more in this or someone was shooting with an automatic rifle. These were just thoughts that went through my mind because of the rapidity of these two, of the first shot plus the blow that I took, and I knew I had been hit, and I immediately assumed, because of the amount of blood, and in fact, that it had obviously passed through my chest. that I had probably been fatally hit.

So I merely doubled up, and then turned to my right again and began to--I just sat there, and Mrs. Connally pulled me over to her lap. She was sitting, of course, on the jump seat, so I reclined with my head in her lap, conscious all the time, and with my eyes open; and then, of course, the third shot sounded, and I heard the shot very clearly. I heard it hit him. I heard the shot hit something, and I assumed again--it never entered my mind that it ever hit anybody but the President. I heard it hit. It was a very loud noise, just that audible, very clear.
Immediately I could see on my clothes, my clothing, I could see on the interior of the car which, as I recall, was a pale blue, brain tissue, which I immediately recognized, and I recall very well, on my trousers there was one chunk of brain tissue as big as almost my thumb, thumbnail, and again I did not see the President at any time either after the first, second, or third shots, but I assumed always that it was he who was hit and no one else.
I immediately, when I was hit, I said, "Oh, no, no, no." And then I said, "My God, they are going to kill us all." Nellie, when she pulled me over into her lap----
Mr. SPECTER. Nellie is Mrs. Connally?
Governor CONNALLY. Mrs. Connally. When she pulled me over into her lap, she could tell I was still breathing and moving, and she said, "Don't worry, Be quiet. You are going to be all right." She Just kept telling me I was going to be all right.
After the third shot, and I heard Roy Kellerman tell the driver, "Bill, get out of line." And then I saw him move, and I assumed he was moving a button or something on the panel of the automobile, and he said, "Get us to a hospital quick." I assumed he was saying this to the patrolman, the motorcycle police who were leading us.
At about that time, we began to pull out of the cavalcade, out of the line, and I lost consciousness and didn't regain consciousness until we got to the hospital.

[/Q]

[Q]Governor CONNALLY. I did not see her. This almost sounds incredible, I am sure, since we were in the car with them. But again I will repeat very briefly when what I believe to be the shot first occurred, I turned to my right, which was away from both of them, of course, and looked out and could see neither, and then as I was turning to look into the back seat where I would have seen both of them, I was hit, so I never completed the turn at all, and I never saw either one of them after the firing started, and, of course, as I have testified, then Mrs. Connally pulled me over into her lap and I was facing forward with my head slightly turned up to where I could see the driver and Roy Kellerman on his right, but I could not see into the back seat, so I didn't see either one of them.


134


Mr. SPECTER. When you turned to your right. Governor Connally, immediately after you heard the first shot. what did you see on that occasion?
Governor CONNALLY. Nothing of any significance except just people out on the grass slope. I didn't see anything that was out of the ordinary, just saw men, women, and children.

[/Q]

[Q]Governor CONNALLY. Yes, I do; I do have doubt, Congressman. I am not at all sure he was shooting at me. I think I could with some logic argue either way. The logic in favor of him, of the position that he was shooting at me, is simply borne out by the fact that the man fired three shots, and he hit each of the three times he fired. He obviously was a pretty good marksman, so you have to assume to some extent at least that he was hitting what he was shooting at.

On the other hand, I think I could argue with equal logic that obviously his prime target, and I think really his sole target, was President Kennedy. His first shot, at least to him, he could not have but known the effect that it might have on the President. His second shot showed that he had clearly missed the President, and his result to him, as the result of the first shot, the President slumped and changed his position in the back seat just enough to expose my back. I haven't seen all of the various positions, but again I think from where he was shooting I was in the direct line of fire immediately in front of the President, so any movement on the part of the President would expose me.
[/Q]

OK

If you want to read Mrs. Kennedy's testimony, you can, but she in my opinion is a tainted witness. She indicated in her testimony that she read in the paper only two shots had hit in the car, which confused her, she recalled three. I do not count her in this and it is clear they did not want to press her hard.

So if three bullets arrived in the car, Oswald could not have been the shooter with a bolt action rifle. You have the testimony of three men and a woman who count three bullets hitting Kennedy and Johnson. You have Johnson corroborating Kellerman that there had to be more than one shooter.

Why would the commission NOT take this into account and create a theory that the first (Best shot Oswald would have taken) bullet missed? The second passed through Kennedy, through Connally, shattering bones and breaking a wrist falling out pristine onto the stretcher in the hospital. The third shattering the brain.


Their own witnesses do not fit.

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/wit.htm
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Old 02-24-2007, 08:26 AM   #60
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Originally posted by Chizip
wait is that really Oswald or someone that looks like him?
TE HSCA determined the man in the doorway to be Bill Lovelady

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