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Old 08-20-2007, 06:34 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by phillyfan26


That's a terrible analogy.

How did Jesus live? He sacrificed. He gave himself to mankind. His sacrifice on the cross represents that.
And in his rememberance I don't need a cross to remember him; I remember Him by sacraficing and helping others, even sacrificing my own time to occassionally respond your insipid posts.j/k

Now you're back on Ignore.

dbs
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Old 08-20-2007, 06:58 PM   #32
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Re: New Documentary About Jesus/The Muslim Perspective

Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
However, Patrick Sookhdeo, an Anglican canon and spokesman for the Barnabas Fund, which works with persecuted Christians, accused broadcasters of double standards. Mr Sookhdeo, who was born a Muslim and converted to Christianity in 1969, said: "How would the Muslim community respond if ITV made a programme challenging Muhammad as the last prophet?"

The Koran's denial of Jesus's divinity was "unacceptable". "On the last day the Koran says Jesus will destroy all the crosses. How can we praise that?"
What a ridiculous line of logic. The main difference in all of this is that Jesus' presence in the Koran was never meant to be denigrating or insulting. Islam's beliefs on Jesus are just that: their beliefs. And I presume that this is all that program is about: outlining Jesus' place in Islamic theology, which very few non-Muslims know about.

You can probably make the argument that religion has a tendency to try and tie in the theology of its ideological predecessors, and since Judaism and Christianity predated Islam, they wanted to include Jesus into their theology. Likewise, the Book of Revelation, in particular, is thought to have reappropriated what the Pharisees of the time thought the Messiah's First Coming was supposed to entail, which, in itself, was reappropriated from Zoroastrian eschatology before it.
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Old 08-20-2007, 08:11 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by deep
is it like the difference of bowing to a golden calf
and bowing to a bronze calf?
yes.......

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Old 08-20-2007, 08:13 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally posted by diamond




If I saw a friend that died by the use of a weapon and came back to life I wouldn't keep a replica of the weapon that killed him in his rememberance.

I find ppl wearing a replica as of a weapon as decorative or in rememberance of somebody quite puzzling.

I think pictures, illustrations or replicating person's example on how he lived when alive would be a more appropiate way to celebrate that person's life.

dbs
In your eyes, is the only thing of significance that happened on the cross that some guy was killed ?
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Old 08-20-2007, 08:19 PM   #35
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Originally posted by toscano


In your eyes, is the only thing of significance that happened on the cross that some guy was killed ?
No.
I worship the risen Christ.

dbs
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Old 08-20-2007, 08:24 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by diamond


No.
Then you ARE aware of the significance, good !

you make it sound like other religions worship the symbol of the cross or Christ on the crucifix, really shows little understanding of what they are about.

Ah, what the heck, it's just cult A vs. cult B anyway.........

"being gay is a choice"
"dinosaurs walked the earth with man"
"Water is actually Na+H2O3"
"the earth is flat, wait, better hold that thought..."
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Old 08-20-2007, 08:50 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by toscano


Then you ARE aware of the significance, good !

..."
It's just how we remember him is all.


dbs
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Old 08-20-2007, 09:35 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by diamond


And in his rememberance I don't need a cross to remember him; I remember Him by sacraficing and helping others, even sacrificing my own time to occassionally respond your insipid posts.j/k

Now you're back on Ignore.

dbs
And what did I say earlier? I said I don't need to remember Jesus that way either. All I said was that it's not ANYTHING like your axe analogy.
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Old 08-21-2007, 12:12 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally posted by deep





If I were Jesus
I would not be too fond of crosses.
Indeed. The cross is a symbol of defeat and I really have no idea why it was chosen as Christ's symbol.
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Old 08-21-2007, 12:23 AM   #40
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I would hardly call the cross a symbol of defeat in Christian theology.
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Old 08-21-2007, 12:25 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally posted by LemonMelon
The cross is a symbol of defeat and I really have no idea why it was chosen as Christ's symbol.
Quote:
In Christendom the cross reminds Christians of God's act of love and atonement in Christ's sacrifice at Calvary - "the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world." The cross also reminds Christians of Jesus' victory over sin and death, since it is believed that through His death and resurrection He conquered death itself.
The earliest of Christians did not prefer the symbol--they preferred the Ichthys or "Jesus Fish." However, by the second century A.D., the cross was the firm symbol of Christianity. The exact reasoning as to why it was chosen, as far as I'm aware, was never written down. But when you're dealing with a religious community that is forced to constantly and consistently stare at the face of death at the hands of Roman persecution, the cross might have been a reminder that Jesus' death, as cruel as it was, was not His end, but His beginning. And, by extension, it would have been preferable for a Christian to die for his/her faith and "begin again" in Heaven than to renounce it at the hands of the Romans.
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Old 08-21-2007, 02:36 AM   #42
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I suppose that first-generation Christians must have started wearing crosses as symbols of hope, which the both the living and the risen Christ represented. The cross was the "electric chair" of Roman times...it was the form of death reserved for common criminals. When Christ died on the cross He was not glorifying criminals per se, (don't think He did not choose the manner of His death) believe He was making a statement about the plight of humankind and the symbol of hope He was. "Through Me you are sanctified, if you so choose." Thereafter, the cross itself became a holy symbol, no longer a thing of fear and dread. The cross must have represented our sinful human selves. (Taylor Caldwell explored this concept in her MUST READ novel of St Luke, "Dear and Glorious Physician." )The cross shape--not the sharp-planed cross, but the slightly rounded Egyptian ankh, was a symbol of divinity and healing, worn by Egyptian physicians. Also, the image of Mother and Child was "copied" from the Egyptian of Isis and infant Osiris...many people (including my dear departed mother) took this to mean that Chritianty was a fake since it utilized far older pagan symbols. I choose to say that rather it was Christ Himself Who did the intentional "copyright infringement"...by consciously choosing the great symbols of the pagan past to better communicate with those who would believe. If you can make sense of that. He knew His audience, so to speak.

I'm not surprised that no Christian would take part, though it is unfortunate. The issue of Christ's divinity is non-negotiable; imagine if Christians did a film about the Dome of the Rock and invited Moslems as well as Jewish and Christian scholars to debate whether or not Mohammed flew up to heaven on a winged horse from that spot. They'd go ballistic--since it's that premise which gives them rights to that prime piece of real estate. As well as challenging his divinity, so to speak! We Christians don't believe Mohammed became divine any more than they believe Jesus was. You may as well say to the Jews that the Western Wall isn't a remnant from Solomon's Temple, but from Herod's chintzy 3rd-generation knockoff, so they have no real claim to Jerusalem; same idea. I could go on and on.

Far better is to explore what specifuically made Jesus a Prophet in their eyes. I read the Koran a long tome ago and I can't recall the verses aobut Jesus. I have two Jordanian friends and I wanted to bring this up but thought it would hrt their feelings. What exactly were His teachings? If He wasn't divine and didn't a "ministry", what did He teach? Wonder if any parables or the Sermon on the Mount made it in there (minus the loaves and fishes.) Did He do any healing. Wish I could ask this.
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Old 08-21-2007, 04:41 AM   #43
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I saw the programme...basically Jesus did everything recorded in the bible...he wasn't divine though, and he was not the son of God...there were a few extra miracles that he carried out which are recorded in the Koran but have now been found to be early Christian pious fairytales, such as Jesus speaking as a baby and making clay doves fly. So he did healing and he did teach much the same as in the bible.

The big difference is of course that Muslims believe the crucifixion to be a grand illusion and Jesus was taken directly into heaven at the garden of Gethsemane. There is an alternate belief that God made people think Judas was Jesus and he was crucified in Jesus' place.

I find it funny that even though Mohammed was the founder of Islam, it is Jesus who will return at the end of days to sort the world out so to speak...even if in Islam he is not considered the most important prophet, he is the second most important.
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