New Bush Litmus Test For AIDS Funding

[deep]

i am just saying the cheating spouse is at fault for damaging his marriage

not the prostitute

 

[Irvine511]

ditto, deep.

prostitutes don't hurt marriages; cheating husbands do.

i think the gambling analogy is apt -- and gambling is legal, though something i've never done.

i don't think it's the role of government to simply outlaw that which has the potential to do damage if it is misused by the wrong people. yes, we do that with somethings, but with prostitution, since much of it is emotional and deals with sex and sexuality, that's up to the individual to regulate.

 

[nbcrusader]

i am just saying the cheating spouse is at fault for damaging his marriage

not the prostitute

Takes two to tango.


And I've been discussing harm to society as a whole - not just on an individual basis.

 

[Irvine511]

Takes two to tango.


And I've been discussing harm to society as a whole - not just on an individual basis.

there's always going to be a prostitute -- you've earlier admitted as much. why not make it legal, and therefore safer.

is the House responsible if you gamble away your life savings? is the gun responsible when you shoot someone?

and i've understood your argument is that the damage it does to an individual, or an individual relationship, is waht then in turn harms society, you've said nothing about how prostitution harms society as a whole.

 

[Irvine511]

i guess it also comes down to how much freedom we should allow people to engage in activities that might be fun, that might be harmless, but might also be personally destructive.

who decides?

 

[all_i_want]

the guardians of our moral societies maybe? you know, they have every right to do so, after all.

but seriously, lets talk about the current situation. there are 2 options in front of us: legalize prostitution or not.
if we dont legalize it:
--prostitution will remain as a criminal activity very much in the hands of career criminals
--we will be busting people for having sex (awesome isnt it??)
--we will have the higher moral ground to condemn the people involved of being lowly and certain parts of society will have the chance to imposed their 'holy' morality on the others.
--we can protect the 'family values' since they are only tarnished when the Johnny (i like the term) bangs his next door neighbour's wife instead of some women he doesnt know. (adultery is not going away just cause you criminalized prostitution, you know)
--prostitution has been around for thousands of years and it is not going away now, so that wont be a consequence of our righteous action.

if we legalize it:
--we will remove the criminals out of the market, which will substantially improve the lives of the prostitutes.
--it will bring the market under government regulation, which will help the government stop underage exploitation and help fight STDs, by testing the workers regularly and giving them better working conditions.
--it will save the cops some time to deal with real crimes
--it will give back the dignity they rightfully deserve to the women who participate in these acts.
--improving the lives of thousands of people who are in this industry
--increase tax revenues by taxing prostitution

 

[Macfistowannabe]

there's always going to be a prostitute -- you've earlier admitted as much. why not make it legal, and therefore safer.

is the House responsible if you gamble away your life savings? is the gun responsible when you shoot someone?

and i've understood your argument is that the damage it does to an individual, or an individual relationship, is waht then in turn harms society, you've said nothing about how prostitution harms society as a whole.

Why not make it legal? Because I want to live in a society without so much perversion. Therefore, I feel this activity could be damaging to those of us who are trying to raise the next generation. In their rebellion stage, they have the propensity to believe that anything that is legal must be right.

Prostitutes are not money, they are not guns either. They are living people like you and me, who should follow the same laws as you and me. Perhaps we should stop comparing them to objects. I kindly ask for better examples.

i guess it also comes down to how much freedom we should allow people to engage in activities that might be fun, that might be harmless, but might also be personally destructive.

who decides?

We all believe in freedom, but our boundaries tend to differ. Nobody here - I HOPE - would be fine with me lifting up a girl's shirt without her consent. Some here believe that violent crimes are the only crimes that are the government's business. Based on that principle, it's okay for me to litter out of laziness than to be a good citizen and recycle as often as necessary. Our views differ a bit on self-destructive activities as well, I believe they should be discouraged, while you tend to believe in anything goes. In your humble opinion, are there any alternatives to legalized prostitution that would benefit society as a whole, as well as the woman? I just don't believe in trying to make a wrong a right.

 

[BVS]

Takes two to tango.

What if the prostitute doesn't know he's married?

Does the 'two to tango' work if a man buys a gun legally and then uses it for a crime, is the gun seller at fault to?

 

[all_i_want]

Why not make it legal? Because I want to live in a society without so much perversion. Therefore, I feel this activity could be damaging to those of us who are trying to raise the next generation. In their rebellion stage, they have the propensity to believe that anything that is legal must be right.

the prostitution will not stop just cause its illegal. the 'perversion' youre talking about, basicly 2 people having sex and one of them paying the other, is happening right now. i think you should weigh out the benefits and costs of legalizing prostitution rather than just playing the moral high ground and saying, 'they are awful, terrible, perverted people, shame on them!'
and the young generation you are talking about, are they just going to say 'hey, prostitution is legal! let me go out and sell my body!' ? if people do this cause they need the money and dont have any other choice, they would do it anyway, legal or not.

and if youre saying the young males will go out and sleep with prostitutes, well, as long as they are protected (which legalization will increase the chances of) what difference does it have from just having sex with your girlfriend? its also transferring funds to the economy?

just because you think you know whats right and moral for others to do doesnt mean we should heed your advice. the legislation has the chance to make life better for so many people and doesnt do it because of it OWN moral issues? it doesnt even do this when people are dying of AIDS? what morality are we talking about?

 

[BVS]

Why not make it legal? Because I want to live in a society without so much perversion. Therefore, I feel this activity could be damaging to those of us who are trying to raise the next generation. In their rebellion stage, they have the propensity to believe that anything that is legal must be right.

First of all, I can find just as much if not more perversion in your church. I mean just by seeing some of the perversion of scripture that I see in here gives me a clue as to what kind of perversion is going on in some of the churches out there. Two, if you are raising the next generation and you are scared that they'll believe that anything legal is right then you're doing a shitty job raising the next generation. Drinking, smoking, pre-marital sex, divorce, hate, cussing, gambling, sex clubs, and wife swapping are all legal but I wouldn't say all are right.

 

[nbcrusader]

First of all, I can find just as much if not more perversion in your church. I mean just by seeing some of the perversion of scripture that I see in here gives me a clue as to what kind of perversion is going on in some of the churches out there. Two, if you are raising the next generation and you are scared that they'll believe that anything legal is right then you're doing a shitty job raising the next generation. Drinking, smoking, pre-marital sex, divorce, hate, cussing, gambling, sex clubs, and wife swapping are all legal but I wouldn't say all are right.

Perversion of Scripture? I'd say this analysis took an unnecessary turn here.

 

[Macfistowannabe]

First of all, I can find just as much if not more perversion in your church. I mean just by seeing some of the perversion of scripture that I see in here gives me a clue as to what kind of perversion is going on in some of the churches out there. Two, if you are raising the next generation and you are scared that they'll believe that anything legal is right then you're doing a shitty job raising the next generation. Drinking, smoking, pre-marital sex, divorce, hate, cussing, gambling, sex clubs, and wife swapping are all legal but I wouldn't say all are right.

What basis of my post gives you the snotrockets to attack my church?

 

[BVS]

What basis of my post gives you the snotrockets to attack my church?

Your posts, well I could say alot, but what the point was:

All churches.

My point was that all churches have their perversions. You focusing on this one issue and not seeing all those that surround you makes you come off a little blind.

 

[drhark]

i guess it also comes down to how much freedom we should allow people to engage in activities that might be fun, that might be harmless, but might also be personally destructive.

who decides?

to some extent, activities falling into this category which have been illegal for a long time, such as prostitution, are more difficult to legalize.

ones that have always been legal, such as smoking, will be more difficult to make illegal.

People are wary of change as you well know.

Sometimes it takes social momentum.

 

[drhark]

you come off a little blind.

It is well established that masturbation "coming off" does not make one blind after all.


Just cooling off with a bit of potty humor

 

[nbcrusader]

i guess it also comes down to how much freedom we should allow people to engage in activities that might be fun, that might be harmless, but might also be personally destructive.

who decides?

Society does this all the time. Think of this when you buckle your seat belt. Or wear a helmet while on a motorcycle.

 

[Macfistowannabe]

the prostitution will not stop just cause its illegal. the 'perversion' youre talking about, basicly 2 people having sex and one of them paying the other, is happening right now. i think you should weigh out the benefits and costs of legalizing prostitution rather than just playing the moral high ground and saying, 'they are awful, terrible, perverted people, shame on them!'

It wouldn't completely stop, but for those who desire to please their sexual desires could always go to strip clubs. Yes, it's happening, but if we don't enforce the laws, it's going to get worse. Legalization would further encourage the "career."

"Playing moral high ground"... Do you believe that legalized prostitution empowers women? Is it wrong for me to see this "career" as a self-demeaning trap? Let's recap a little bit on history. Slavery was a moral issue. If morality did not matter to anybody at that time, where would this country be today?

http://www.beverlylahayeinstitute.org/articledisplay.asp?id=3466&department=BLI&categoryid=reports

But a panel presentation titled "Prostitution: Male Violence Against Women Exposed" shed light on how instead of eradicating sex trafficking, legalizing prostitution exacerbates the problem.

Melissa Farley, Director of Prostitution Research and Education, a project of the San Francisco Women's Center, revealed the findings of a survey of 854 people currently or recently involved in prostitution in Canada, Colombia, Germany, Mexico, South Africa, Thailand, Turkey, the United States and Zambia, and their experiences of sexual and physical violence.

The survey showed that of those involved in prostitution:

89% wanted to escape, but did not have other options for survival;
65% to 95% had been sexually assaulted as children;
70% to 95% were physically assaulted;
60% to 75% were raped;
88% experienced verbal abuse and social contempt;
68% met criteria for post-traumatic stress disorder. The severity of symptoms was in the same range as combat veterans seeking treatment, battered women seeking shelter, rape survivors, and refugees from state-organized torture.

[...]

Jeffreys explained that legalized prostitution did not solve the problem of criminal involvement in the industry. It did not solve the problem of unregulated expansion. And it did nothing to quell the violence committed against street-prostituted women. In fact, all of these problems worsened.

[...]

The Far Left has argued that legalizing prostitution would enable women to choose their working conditions and their clients. According to an article in Victoria's The Age newspaper (3/1/1999), former pimps with criminal convictions are forbidden by legalized prostitution from owning legal brothels, but they control them under front organizations. Furthermore, it is virtually impossible for exploited women to set up business for themselves.

and the young generation you are talking about, are they just going to say 'hey, prostitution is legal! let me go out and sell my body!' ? if people do this cause they need the money and dont have any other choice, they would do it anyway, legal or not.

I would argue that not as many would be inclined to engage in prostitution, seeing that it is condemned by law. Again, strip clubs are available to the loose crowd who wants to make a quick buck.

and if youre saying the young males will go out and sleep with prostitutes, well, as long as they are protected (which legalization will increase the chances of) what difference does it have from just having sex with your girlfriend? its also transferring funds to the economy?

Easy. If I had a prostitute in my past, I would not be with the woman I am with today. It's a scar of shame, at least where I come from. Limited pleasure for an exorbitant price, without a relationship. Once you're done, you gotta piss off. How does anyone enjoy this?

just because you think you know whats right and moral for others to do doesnt mean we should heed your advice. the legislation has the chance to make life better for so many people and doesnt do it because of it OWN moral issues? it doesnt even do this when people are dying of AIDS? what morality are we talking about?

Okay, this example is exaggerated, at least I think so. But should two relatives be taught that sex with each other is wrong, or should they screw away? There has to be some form of morality in the government. Morality IS NOT ALWAYS religion. By eliminating all morality from the government, I don't even find that secularly logical. The purpose of the law is to protect people, even when they are self-destructive. The purpose of the executive branch is NOT to rebel against the current laws, but to enforce them. SO WHERE IS THE LAW ENFORCEMENT? DO YOU EVEN BELIEVE IN IT? We will have STDs whether or not we legalize prostitution. The government is not responsible for every aspect of your sex life, plain and simple. No valid enough reason would bring me to lower my standards for the sake of a small percentage who ultimately destroy themselves inside out.

 

[verte76]

I'm not trying to rip off this thread, but I do have a question about this. Prostitution has been called "the world's oldest profession", and that's probably true. Why do you suppose that is? Is it because in former times it was not possible for women to work for a living the way we can now? Any other ideas?

 

[Macfistowannabe]

I'm not trying to rip off this thread, but I do have a question about this. Prostitution has been called "the world's oldest profession", and that's probably true. Why do you suppose that is? Is it because in former times it was not possible for women to work for a living the way we can now? Any other ideas?

Interesting point. More jobs are available to women now than ever before (correct me if I'm wrong). We've had a massive boom in double-income families in recent years. Women have been encouraged to take on jobs that wouldn't have been available to them sixty years ago. I'm not sure if what I'm saying relates to the debate for one side or the other, but it doesn't hurt to ponder a little bit.

 

[melon]

I'm not trying to rip off this thread, but I do have a question about this. Prostitution has been called "the world's oldest profession", and that's probably true. Why do you suppose that is? Is it because in former times it was not possible for women to work for a living the way we can now? Any other ideas?

Even monkeys have been observed to engage in prostitute-like behavior (as in trading food for sex, and the male monkeys would act like pimps, in some cases). It's probably evolutionary behavior.

Melon

 

[Macfistowannabe]

 

[Dreadsox]

Why the heck can't people start a thread about prostitution? this thread was about decisions that affect the ability to fight AIDS.

Read the article....

it was about drug needles...
it was about condoms.....

It was about making a decision that limits organizations from being able to fight AIDS.

 

[nbcrusader]

Dread,

I greatly admire and respect the work you have done to raise awareness about AIDS in Africa.

The article was about:

Administration officials recently started requiring U.S. AIDS groups seeking federal grants as support for their overseas programs to sign a pledge publicly opposing prostitution.

Some organizations have rejected aid because they refused to sign the pledge. There was nothing in the article to suggest that the pledge limited organizations ability to fight AIDS other than their own reluctance.

The original post framed the issue in terms of the appropriatness of the pledge.

Is your thesis statement "there should be no limitations, restrictions or conditions on federal grants for AIDS relief"?

 

[nbcrusader]

Also from the article:

Many AIDS groups -- some of them considered liberal on social issues -- say the best way to limit the disease is to acknowledge that some people inevitably engage in risky behavior -- intravenous drug use, prostitution or multipartner sex, for example -- and health workers should try to both discourage those activities and make them less dangerous.

I would think this two pronged approach to combating AIDS (discouraging risk behavior and making risky behavior safer) would not be controversial.

 

[BVS]

I would think this two pronged approach to combating AIDS (discouraging risk behavior and making risky behavior safer) would not be controversial.

But you can discourage behavior without denying aid.

I mean while bringing aid to these victims you are bringing aid to people who've engaged in unprotected sex or used dirty needles. Unless you are only going to reserve aid to those that are born with it and that would be useless.

The fact is, to do anything about this disease you offer aid to them all. And if providing condoms to prostitutes helps, then do it.

It's just common sense. Why some of you don't see it, baffles me.

 

[nbcrusader]

The aid is available to organizations who bring aid to people who've engaged in unprotected sex or used dirty needles.

You can discourage behavior without rejecting aid.

 

[BVS]

The aid is available to organizations who bring aid to people who've engaged in unprotected sex or used dirty needles.

You can discourage behavior without rejecting aid.

Ok so why not aid to prostitutes? This still is making any sense.

 

[Irvine511]

Society does this all the time. Think of this when you buckle your seat belt. Or wear a helmet while on a motorcycle.

it does to a degree, but the degree of danger from the activity is usually commensurate with the amount of regulation.

death is often the result from car crashes without seatbelts and motorcycle accidents without helmets. not so with visiting a prostitute -- you could make an HIV argument, however the testing and regulation of prostitutes would hugely reduce the transmission of HIV to prostitutes and from a prostitute to a John.