New Bush Litmus Test For AIDS Funding

[Irvine511]

I think this would be an excellent topic for a different thread. First, you would have to define "morality" as many of our laws define rights and wrongs.

I think we are defining the same process different ways. A government's promotion of morality can be defined as "reducing the suffering of its citizens".

maybe this should go to a different thread, but let me pose the following thoughts:

if prostitution were legalized, would this reduce or increase suffering? and if that's how we define morality, isn't the moral thing to legalize prostitution?

when i speak of morals, and when i define my own morals, i define them exactly how you do in the above post. however, my understanding from Macfisto's comment, specifically when he equated prostitution and pornography and called them immoral, is that he was speaking of a commonly understood conservative morality that seems to apply to the regulation of people's sex lives (and those that perpetuate said morality -- Santorum comes to mind -- appear to be obsessed with the sex lives of consenting adults).

as far as my use of the world "morality," i was using it in the terms by which i had understood it to be defined in this thread; you've broadened the definition, and made it one closer to my own, but i don't see how that applies to the topic and the terms of the topic currently at hand.

the morality of feeding the poor, say, speaks to me.

the morality of prostitution, i simply don't care about.

 

[BVS]

I guess there would be a better argument for legalizing prostitution if a convincing number of prostitutes said they led fulfilling lives in the profession.

I can think of a lot of professions where the majority of the employees say they don't lead fulfilling lives.

 

[Macfistowannabe]

I must question this - why do you seem to only object to violent crimes? Does morality even matter anymore? How low should we go?

I would like these questions answered, I'm very curious.

Instead of lowering our standards as much as possible, I believe we should discourage the activities with law enforcement, which is the purpose of the executive branch. Don't get me all wrong though, I do think there should be more resources for those who are stuck in prostitution. Perhaps a series of provided jobs under the government would be an option. The government would have expenses on this either way. I want prostitution to remain discouraged, not encouraged.

 

[BVS]

I must question this - why do you seem to only object to violent crimes? Does morality even matter anymore? How low should we go?

I would like these questions answered, I'm very curious.

Instead of lowering our standards as much as possible, I believe we should discourage the activities with law enforcement, which is the purpose of the executive branch. Don't get me all wrong though, I do think there should be more resources for those who are stuck in prostitution. Perhaps a series of provided jobs under the government would be an option. The government would have expenses on this either way. I want prostitution to remain discouraged, not encouraged.

I know this isn't towards me but what I think he's saying is it's not the government's job to enforce morality through law enforcement. It's to protect and provide their citizens.

Why do you only push for some morals to be under the umbrella of law and not others?

 

[Do Miss America]

Why do you only push for some morals to be under the umbrella of law and not others?

The other "moral issues" they take part in and wouldn't want the long arm of the law to catch them or their church members.

 

[all_i_want]

does morality even matter? good question

the thing about morality is that it is very subjective. the country i live in at the moment is very free about a lot of things (weed, soft drugs, prostitution) and i certainly dont think these people lost their morals.

in the netherlands theyve legalized prostitution and this means safer sex for the prostitutes and their clients.

also, why does the all mighty capitalism let everyone to pursue all kinds of business ventures but not prostitution? no one's hurt? of course, youd say itd help spread of diseases, but if these women were tested regularly and used condoms, would that really be a problem?

i think its time to wake up and smell the coffee. prostitution has been around for thousands of years and its not going away now. who does the prostitutes hurt anyway?

god im so sick of people imposing their morality on others. and they have religion to justify their views, which only supports my view that all religions are useless and should be at the bottom of the ocean.

 

[nbcrusader]

Why do you only push for some morals to be under the umbrella of law and not others?

We shouldn't fall into an "all or nothing" mentality as we have yet to define the "all" for "morality".

But I think it is fair to address each issue independently and determine whether it is morality we should follow.

 

[Macfistowannabe]

Does morality even matter anymore?

If your answer is 'no', perhaps sex with relatives is something the government has no business legislating against.

 

[Do Miss America]

If your answer is 'no', perhaps sex with relatives is something the government has no business legislating against.

And is that illegal? Some states marrying them them is legal, so I'm not sure if you have a point there.

 

[Macfistowannabe]

Just a provocative point. How far should we take it?

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

I must question this - why do you seem to only object to violent crimes?

Because those crimes are ones that harm other people, that endanger their lives and cause problems for the family and friends of the victims as well as the criminals. Those things aren't illegal so much for how moral or immoral they may be as they are for the simple fact that they cause other people physical harm, and people die as a result of a lot of those actions.

But as long as what somebody's doing doesn't have any of those effects, I guess I'm just curious as to why people still feel they have the right to tell them they can't do what makes them happy. You don't have to like their activities, you don't have to agree with their lifestyles, etc., but to tell them to not do what they want to do simply because you don't understand it or agree with it doesn't make sense to me. Especially considering that those that like to tell others how to live their lives would probably hate it if the tables were turned. I personally have no desire to get involved in the whole prostitution thing, but so long as a woman was being safe about it and it was something she wanted to do and all that...who am I to tell her to stop? Why should I tell her to stop?

Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
Does morality even matter anymore? How low should we go?

Again, though, that's the thing-you consider allowing activities like this to continue on "going low" in terms of society's moral standards. But with other people, maybe they don't see it as "lowering" standards. There are billions of people on this planet, meaning there will always be varying opinions on what is moral and immoral...we will never have a universal agreement on that stuff. Basically, ditto what all_i_want said in regards to the subjective nature of morality.

Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
I want prostitution to remain discouraged, not encouraged.

And why should we go by what you feel is best? At least by making prostitution legal, we're allowing those who wish to participate in it to do so, and we're not forcing those who don't like it and don't wish to participate in it to do so. But by you saying you want it discouraged, you're trying to push what you want on everyone around you.

Angela

 

[Dreadsox]

Prostitution will NEVER be illegal.

Having worked in one of the top hotels in the United States, if you view it is girls on the streets waiting for Richard Gere to stop in his limo and pic you up you are mistaken.

Prostitution for the rich and famous does not work that way.

Having removed prostitutes from the rooms of guests, having waited at 3:00 AM for their rides to pick them up, I can tell you you are not EVER going to stop it.

But seriously, if you think it is a worthy discussion about it, start another thread.

 

[nbcrusader]

And why should we go by what you feel is best? At least by making prostitution legal, we're allowing those who wish to participate in it to do so, and we're not forcing those who don't like it and don't wish to participate in it to do so. But by you saying you want it discouraged, you're trying to push what you want on everyone around you.

So, if we can't all decide on what's right or wrong, we should let it happen?

If you are going to argue for legalization of prostitution, please outline the benefits to society of the practice (and not just removal of the risks associated with engaging in illegal behavior) and how they outweigh the harms to society.

 

[nbcrusader]

Prostitution will NEVER be illegal.

It is illegal.

It will, however, never be fully eliminated. Like prohibition, once we have a taste for something, it is hard to give up.

 

[Dreadsox]

Note to self-stop typing when you just rolled out of bed...

I meant to say stopped.

 

[dandy]

If you are going to argue for legalization of prostitution, please outline the benefits to society of the practice (and not just removal of the risks associated with engaging in illegal behavior) and how they outweigh the harms to society.

i don't think we need to prove the *benefits* to society in order to support the legalization argument. prostitution exists, always has, always will, in every society on this planet. why? that's what we need to be thinking about. forget benefits, forget fulfilling career choices--in order for us to make any progress we need to look at why prostitution is a universal constant.

in a nutshell: demand. which isn't going away, no matter how hard we try to legislate against it. we need to find ways to accomodate this reality with the fact that prostitutes are human beings with dignity and feelings, who deserve to be treated with the same respect as everyone else.

burying our heads in the sand and hoping it will go away clearly is not a viable solution. it only makes things worse.

 

[Irvine511]

So, if we can't all decide on what's right or wrong, we should let it happen?

If you are going to argue for legalization of prostitution, please outline the benefits to society of the practice (and not just removal of the risks associated with engaging in illegal behavior) and how they outweigh the harms to society.

let's filp the question on it's head -- what are the harms to society caused by prostitution, independing of the crime that surrounds any illegal profession, like drug dealing.

i'd say that the benefits to society would be the removal of precisely these negative elements -- drugs, disease, the fact that you'd put a lot of pimps, who tend to be terrible people involved in all sorts of other illegal activities, out of business.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

So, if we can't all decide on what's right or wrong, we should let it happen?

As long as nobody's being hurt or killed through this process (which would be less likely to happen if it were legalized), I'd say yeah, we should just let them go on and do what they please. Again, you most certainly do not have to like what they do, you may personally find it immoral or wrong or whatever, but as long as they aren't hurting anybody else, and as long as nobody's being killed, I don't understand why they can't have the right to do what they want to do.

Originally posted by nbcrusader
If you are going to argue for legalization of prostitution, please outline the benefits to society of the practice (and not just removal of the risks associated with engaging in illegal behavior) and how they outweigh the harms to society.

As Irvine said, can you first explain what possible harm could come to society by allowing prostitution to be legal? 'Cause as of now, I'm not seeing any-if it were legal, and the adults were consenting, and they didn't have diseases, and so on and so forth, it'd basically just be two people going off and having sex for the fun of it...how exactly does that affect me or you or Mr. and Mrs. Smith in Kentucky in any negative fashion? I wouldn't even know anyone was doing that unless they were to tell me for some reason or other, so I'm just wondering where the harm comes in.

And Irvine already covered the benefits to society that would come from this, so...

Angela

 

[nbcrusader]

I guess we won't get this resolved.

One side sees harm, the other side doesn't.

And the benefits, other than reducing what is enhanced by its illegal status, is unknown.

 

[Irvine511]

I guess we won't get this resolved.

One side sees harm, the other side doesn't.

And the benefits, other than reducing what is enhanced by its illegal status, is unknown.

you've yet to say what the harm in prostitution is.

could you explicate?

 

[nbcrusader]

Actually, I confirmed one of the harm you recognized: specifically the impact on existing relationships when one party decides to purchase sex outside the relationship.


Prostitution inherently affects the way sexual relations are viewed by the participants. Instead of a physical expression of a relationship, it is reduced to a physical act that can be purchased. It would be ridiculous to think that this would not affect a subsequent relationship.

The expectations of individuals is altered when there is a "market value" for an act. And I would suggest that it is harmful to the development of a loving relationship when one party can say "well, if you won't do it, I can buy it for $X on the street".

I would also suggest that a women engaged in prostitution will have a more difficult time developing a loving sexual relationship based on the prior experiences.

 

[Irvine511]

Actually, I confirmed one of the harm you recognized: specifically the impact on existing relationships when one party decides to purchase sex outside the relationship.


Prostitution inherently affects the way sexual relations are viewed by the participants. Instead of a physical expression of a relationship, it is reduced to a physical act that can be purchased. It would be ridiculous to think that this would not affect a subsequent relationship.

The expectations of individuals is altered when there is a "market value" for an act. And I would suggest that it is harmful to the development of a loving relationship when one party can say "well, if you won't do it, I can buy it for $X on the street".

I would also suggest that a women engaged in prostitution will have a more difficult time developing a loving sexual relationship based on the prior experiences.

the only point that has any resonance for me is the last one. the others are a product of how you might understand sex and it's function. but what about people who are not in a relationship and there is no signficant other that might be harmed by a visit to the prosititute? where's the damage there?

i think if you could prove that prostititution is emotionally damaging for the prostitute, that might be the most compelling case. it might be argued that the damage comes not from a sexual transaction, but the engagement in an illegal activity. are strippers damaged by their professions?

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

Actually, I confirmed one of the harm you recognized: specifically the impact on existing relationships when one party decides to purchase sex outside the relationship.

Prostitution inherently affects the way sexual relations are viewed by the participants. Instead of a physical expression of a relationship, it is reduced to a physical act that can be purchased. It would be ridiculous to think that this would not affect a subsequent relationship.

The expectations of individuals is altered when there is a "market value" for an act. And I would suggest that it is harmful to the development of a loving relationship when one party can say "well, if you won't do it, I can buy it for $X on the street".

That's still something that each couple personally has to deal with on their own-that still isn't something that's damaging to society as a whole, as not everyone in this society intends on getting involved with prostitutes or being a prostitute themselves. And while it may certainly affect some relationships, there are always exceptions to the rule-they may not be very common, but they're there.

Also, yet again, I must ditto Irvine's post.

Angela

 

[Irvine511]

i think it can also be said that visiting a regulated prostitution might be beneficial for some marriages.

let's say, for example, a man and woman are married and have kids and love each other very much. let's say that the woman has lost interest in sex (sorry to dig up a cliche, but it fits) and her husband is as randy as ever, and his right hand isn't cutting it anymore.

might it be possible that the purchasing of a session with the prostitute is the best thing to continue the longevity of the marriage? might it be a much better alternative than infidelity with another woman? at least with a prostitute, the transaction is clear and understood, there's no worry of emotion and attachment getting in the way and possibly having a deleterous effect upon the marriagea

 

[nbcrusader]

that still isn't something that's damaging to society as a whole,

On what basis do you say this? If something affects hundreds of thousands of couples (very conservative estimate), how can it have no impact on society as a whole??

 

[Irvine511]

On what basis do you say this? If something affects hundreds of thousands of couples (very conservative estimate), how can it have no impact on society as a whole??

is the problem the prostitute, prostitution, or a cheating John?

and how do we know what kind of effect this is, and if it's any worse than other legal activities (say, gambling).

 

[nbcrusader]

i think if you could prove that prostititution is emotionally damaging for the prostitute, that might be the most compelling case. it might be argued that the damage comes not from a sexual transaction, but the engagement in an illegal activity. are strippers damaged by their professions?

Excellent example. What are the negative impacts on women who perform as strippers (fully legal)?

Night after night being objectified by men. I can't imagine that is healthy in the long run.

Women may choose this profession, but I'm sure they choose it for the money - not the consequences.

 

[nbcrusader]

is the problem the prostitute, prostitution, or a cheating John?

There may be sub problems for the prostitute and the John, but we've been looking at problems created by prostetution as a whole.

and how do we know what kind of effect this is, and if it's any worse than other legal activities (say, gambling).

We can tackle gambling in a different thread

 

[deep]

On what basis do you say this? If something affects hundreds of thousands of couples (very conservative estimate), how can it have no impact on society as a whole??

When the topic is gun control you want to hold the person accountable for their behavior


You seem to be letting the cheating spouse off the hook.

 

[nbcrusader]

When the topic is gun control you want to hold the person accountable for their behavior


You seem to be letting the cheating spouse off the hook.

Not at all.


You want to punish people for adultery?