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Old 03-01-2005, 11:32 AM   #31
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you go, dread.

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Old 03-01-2005, 01:19 PM   #32
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you go, dread.

I second that.
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Old 03-01-2005, 01:40 PM   #33
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Originally posted by Dreadsox


Where is the merit in promoting a policy that wastes my tax dollars and does VERY LITTLE to stop innocent wives from contracting AIDS by husbands who visit prostitutes.

No there is nothing wrong with discouraging prostitution. Did ANYONE in here say that?

Let me check the thread....no nobody said that. I am disappointed if this is what you are getting from the conversation.
NO ONE is denying that more should be done regarding AIDS.

Unless this thread was designed as another Bush bashing session, the core issues of this thread are (1) the value/merit of an anti-prostitution stance and (2) how such statements interfer with the provision of AIDS relief.
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Old 03-01-2005, 01:46 PM   #34
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Originally posted by nbcrusader

Unless this thread was designed as another Bush bashing session
Is that what you think it was? It wasn't, I happen to think it's an important issue. No ulterior motives
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Old 03-01-2005, 02:19 PM   #35
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Is that what you think it was? It wasn't, I happen to think it's an important issue. No ulterior motives
That is why I asked my questions.

I should have phrased that as "this thread turning into another..."

Sorry if that sounded accusatory.
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Old 03-01-2005, 02:37 PM   #36
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Originally posted by nbcrusader

I should have phrased that as "this thread turning into another..."
Sorry if that sounded accusatory.
OK Sorry if I sounded harsh - reading what I said again I did, so I apologize for that
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Old 03-01-2005, 02:42 PM   #37
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Dreadsox asked a bunch of questions and my answer to them all is, while I don't have the facts at my fingertips, yes. I agree. I also agree with points #1-11.

I believe global AIDS is a huge problem.

I believe there are many innocent victims of AIDS who contract it through no fault of their own.

I believe AIDS is preventable for many who contract it, meaning they engaged in high risk behaviors they knew could lead to the contracting of HIV.

I believe there are many, mostly in Third World countries, who do not know that certain behaviors put them at risk for contracting HIV.

I believe we as a people should be equally compassionate towards all sufferers regardless of how they contracted HIV, innocent or not so innocent, knowingly or not knowingly.

I believe, as Bono does, that the US has an interest in stopping the spread of AIDS and assisting those who now suffer.

I oppose on practical grounds any behavior such as prostitution, intravenous drug use, unprotected anal intercourse, or sex with multiple partners that contribute to the spread of AIDS. I believe these behaviors should be discouraged and publicly condemned. I realize this doesn't solve the problem but I believe you have to start by drawing the line.

I am frustrated that AIDS continues to spread, even in the US, despite the billions spent worldwide on prevention.

I am not sure that even an unlimited amount of dollars spent on education and prevention including abstinence, condom use, needles will stop the spread of AIDS, yet I support continued funding.

I believe human nature and sexual desire are extremely powerful things and will defy common sense, education and even trump survival instincts on occasion.

I believe conscience is a powerful thing as well, and can serve as a powerful check to human nature.

I believe the conscience is deeper, more primal and more powerful than education stored as facts in the brain.

I believe there is some truth to the statement "religion is the opiate of the masses." This is partly because it is religion that informs the conscience.

I believe many religious tenets hold inherent wisdom and can be validated outside of the constructs of religion.

WSJ ARTICLE:
"Some private organizations expressed dismay at the new policy. "I'm sure there are good intentions motivating the implementation of this policy, but...we feel very concerned that this will fuel stigma against sex workers," said Geeta Rao Gupta, president of the International Center for Research on Women."

I believe there should be stigma against sex workers.

I believe prostitution has and will always exist, but it's always been on the fringe of society where it belongs.


This is the part where I bring Jesus into it for those who won't let it go.

[I believe Jesus forgave prostitutes then exhorted them to sin no more.

I believe those same prostitutes, had they continued practicing their profession, would have been forgiven had they repented, and Jesus would have exhorted them each time, "Sin no more'.

I believe Jesus would have forgiven them and exhorted them a hundred or a thousand times over.

I believe we should do the same.]

I believe abstinence education will work for a small percentage of people.

I believe distribution and availability of condoms makes one feel more secure about having sex.

I believe one who feels secure about having sex will be more likely to start having sex or have sex more often than they normally would have.

I believe once one is sexually active, they rarely revert to being not sexually active.

I believe the more one has sex, the more opportunities there are to have unprotected sex, whether due to complacency, desire for increased sensation, lack of condom in hand during heat of passion, or possession of only 2 condoms during a 3 nut session (for lack of a better term).

I can't say that the article even spelled out if Bush even has an official position on this.
"Some also are pressing to ban federal funding of all AIDS organizations that fail to accept the president's social agenda on such issues as sexual abstinence and drug abuse."
Could the author have been more specific with this statement?

It didn't really give many specifics on what exactly the Bush policy is, or exactly what strings Bush is attaching to aid, apart from this:

"Administration officials recently started requiring U.S. AIDS groups seeking federal grants as support for their overseas programs to sign a pledge publicly opposing prostitution"

If signing that pledge would get these groups funding and at the same time give many Americans peace of mind that their money is being used wisely (whether you agree or not), why not sign the pledge?

To answer a previous post, I don't think this would be an impossible condition.
Conservatives and conservative groups are not at the forefront of AIDS relief, but some are trying to find their place. Bush is trying to get support from all Americans for this cause, so like it or not, politics is in play.

I think a knee jerk "we're fighting AIDS, how dare they question us, just give us the money" attitude is inappropriate.

I give Bush some credit. You want to talk about moralizing, talk to Bono, who has been calling inaction on this issue immoral. And you know what? Bono's moralizing is working.


Another point to be made is that there are different cultural dynamics in play in different areas of the world. Perhaps abstinence education would be more effective in a country where they're not inundated with sex 24/7 as we are in the US.
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Old 03-01-2005, 02:47 PM   #38
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Originally posted by Bono's American Wife




Prostitution is not going to go away so instead of wasting so much money and time arresting and re-arresting prostitutes and their clients, why not get some control over it by regulating it?
Signing a pledge to publicly oppose it is different than wasting money and time arresting and re-arresting prostitutes and their clients
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Old 03-01-2005, 02:48 PM   #39
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i'm glad you have so many beliefs.

now, what do you think should be done?
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Old 03-01-2005, 03:26 PM   #40
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I quoted the part of the article I have a problem with earlier, here it is again:

[Q]The White House move comes as Republican lawmakers have been pressing the administration to cut off funds to private organizations that encourage clean-needle programs overseas for intravenous drug users -- a group at the center of the AIDS epidemic in Central Asia and other areas. Some also are pressing to ban federal funding of all AIDS organizations that fail to accept the president's social agenda on such issues as sexual abstinence and drug abuse.[/Q]

And if this is the direction they are going, it is a waste of tax-payer money.
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Old 03-01-2005, 05:18 PM   #41
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Originally posted by Irvine511
i'm glad you have so many beliefs.

now, what do you think should be done?
I felt I had to state my beliefs as to not come off as hateful.

First, the American taxpayers need to be more informed as to what the crisis is, where the aid is going and how it is being spent. This is the job of the media and I think they're failing miserably. I think they would be more supportive if they saw directly how their $$ is saving lives.

I think we should fund groups, as we are, that are providing care to the afflicted. This may actually be something the UN could excel at.

We should negotiate a fair price on AIDS drugs to Africa that at the same time rewards drug companies for the life saving work they do and enables them to R & D better, more improved drugs.

We should spend what it takes to make sure every man, woman and child in Africa knows what AIDS is, and how it is spread, dispelling any myths they may have about sex with virgins. There has to be some sort of educational technique that would officially teach abstinence to children, put the very real fear of a slow agonizing death in them and at the same time teach that married people wear condoms. That would open the door to condom education without condoning illicit sex. Condoms would be officially available to married people and unofficially available to anyone else.

I think testing centers should be available in every town or region and people testing + should be somehow registered and made public. Should testing be mandatory? Probably.


No, I'm not 100% sure of all this. I think you can only do so much. It's an uphill battle against human nature and at some point you have to concede that you can arm people with knowlege and they need to make the right decisions or suffer the consequences. And destructive behavior will always leave innocent victims in it's wake.

You could rain down condoms from the sky in Africa and the problem wouldn't go away. Lives would be saved in the short run but it's just not a long term solution.

There ultimately has to be a cultural transformation of some sort originating from within the people of that continent.
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Old 03-01-2005, 06:03 PM   #42
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Originally posted by drhark


I believe there are many, mostly in Third World countries, who do not know that certain behaviors put them at risk for contracting HIV.
Um, we seem to have this problem here in the US as well.

Quote:
I believe human nature and sexual desire are extremely powerful things and will defy common sense, education and even trump survival instincts on occasion.
And this is the crux of it all. This is basic. People want to forget that, somewhere under their morning coffees, business lunches, mortgages and 1-week vacations to Disney, they are "animals". THIS is what the administration--and much of the population--doesn't want to face. They want to look at the world through skewed-colored glasses and, no offense to our Christian friends (or those of other faiths), try to impose upon everyone else their beliefs. Yes, I understand that to try and rise above our "animal-like" tendencies is noble, but they cannot be forgotten. THAT is where education comes in.

WE have all heard about how Abstinence-only programs fail--that the kids who sign virginity pledges end up with just as high a percentage of STDs as non-pledge kids.

Quote:
[B]I believe distribution and availability of condoms makes one feel more secure about having sex.

I believe one who feels secure about having sex will be more likely to start having sex or have sex more often than they normally would have.

I believe once one is sexually active, they rarely revert to being not sexually active.[/B/]
That's part of life. People are going to have sex! Why is this so hard for so many of us to grasp! It's what our bodies were made to do--reproduce! And it's especially what 15 and 16-year-old bodies were made to do. It's unfortunate that this is the age when girls and boys have huge hormonal rushes that they cannot maturely deal with, but is just IS! Turning away and telling them to wait is not, in almost every case, going to work. And this is nothing new to our modern times. Let's not romanticize the past. Talking with kids and giving them ALL of the information is not forcing them into bed with someone. That will happen regardless of what we do. But giving them a brain full of CORRECT information--about babies, AIDS, etc.--is the best prevention!

Quote:
Another point to be made is that there are different cultural dynamics in play in different areas of the world. Perhaps abstinence education would be more effective in a country where they're not inundated with sex 24/7 as we are in the US.
This makes me itchy. WE DID NOT INVENT SEX! Jeez--open a Nationall Geographic for goodness sake! Other cultures--yeah, even those Third World countries that everyone looks at as being completely backward because they don't have Coke or SUVs--know about sex. They have their own mores and traditions. Let's just clomp on in there, bring everyone a Bible and set 'em all straight. Our problem here in the US is that we are inundated with sex, but no one wants to talk about it. Sure, we say it's such a shame that sex is used to sell cars and TVs and everything...but hush--it's not nice to talk about it. And they wonder why 14-year-old girls still get pregnant and get AIDS and everything else.

I believe in education.

off my soapbox now.
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Old 03-01-2005, 10:42 PM   #43
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to enggirl's post. Well said.

Angela
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Old 03-01-2005, 10:54 PM   #44
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I find all this pro-prostitution/legalize everything nonsense over the top.

If there is an issue, why is the answer always "let's make x legal?"
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Old 03-01-2005, 11:03 PM   #45
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Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
I find all this pro-prostitution/legalize everything nonsense over the top.

If there is an issue, why is the answer always "let's make x legal?"
Because having prostitution and things along that line banned isn't solving any of our problems. STDs still come up, rape still happens, in some places, women wouldn't be able to go get help if they've been attacked, because so many people look down upon prostitution and wouldn't want to help a prostitute out, and so on and so forth. If this were legalized, those problems would disappear fast, because it'd be regulated and be a lot safer practice and everything.

As long as the prostitutes and clients involved are consenting adults, and they're all void of any diseases (which people would be able to be tested for if this were legalized and regulated) and they're not with anybody else, and nobody intends on hurting anybody else in this situation, I don't see why people should care whether or not they go off and have sex together.

Angela
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