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Old 02-28-2005, 06:28 PM   #16
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Wow....so what would Jesus do?

Not help? Cause she is a whore?

Son of a bitch.....With the rise in the rate of AIDS being the greatest among women, this is the most ignorant response I have seen.

Most of the initiatitive I am trying to get going at my church is funding projects that give women a source of income, so as to help stop the spread of the disease.....

Bush is condemning the sin of prostitution and providing no alternative......How Christlike!
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Old 02-28-2005, 06:57 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by drhark


Bush is choosing not to help? How much $$$ is he sending?

Which HIV+ Africans is Bush discriminating against?

Abstinence doesn't save lives?

Personally, I don't think Jesus has anything to do with it.

It's not a very sound argument to compare Jesus to the governmental policies of the leader of the free world. Jesus didn't deal with governments, he dealt with individuals.
It's obvious you didn't read the article for this article is not specific to Africa.

So let me get this straight you are going to help people with AIDS but not those having sex? Makes sence.

Look I know you're obviously not aware of the dangers of Bush's abstinence(which is based on his religious views hence why I brought Jesus into it) only programs. You're not being able to answer any of the questions in a previous thread posed by many made that apparent. But you can't force agendas like this when you are looking at a world epidemic.
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Old 02-28-2005, 08:45 PM   #18
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"EARTH TO OUR MULLAH IN CHIEF:
"PROSTITUTION IS NOT GOING TO GO AWAY JUST BECAUSE YOU WAVE YOUR MAGIC WAND. "

These are real people and you have to talk to them, deal with them, and open up a constructive dialogue on this. Does this guy think they are hookers becuase they enjoy it, and chose to be? He's going to harp on the "Scarley woman of Babylon, and on her forehead was written: MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, HIGH AMONG THE WHOREDOMS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH" next. (wait, Babylon of Revelation is today's Iraq, so he already has..hm, maybe I'm on to something. Very Christian, indeed.)

I am so SICK and TIRED of the highfalutin "moral" stench that surrounds this Adminstration, while they close up the White House like a fortress and withhold information getting in or out but what they want us to hear. Every other day a new potential "Scandal" comes out and it melts away. The greatest Christians are those who go around saying what bad Christians they are.

The "moral" people are often guilty of the greatest crimes. Like the Pharisees and Sddducees, they wrap themselves in the written letter of the law, while they use it to crush the weak and helpless.
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Old 03-01-2005, 01:54 AM   #19
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


It's obvious you didn't read the article for this article is not specific to Africa.

So let me get this straight you are going to help people with AIDS but not those having sex? Makes sence.

Look I know you're obviously not aware of the dangers of Bush's abstinence(which is based on his religious views hence why I brought Jesus into it) only programs. You're not being able to answer any of the questions in a previous thread posed by many made that apparent. But you can't force agendas like this when you are looking at a world epidemic.
If prostitution and drug use contribute to the spread of AIDS, what's wrong with condemning them as you're doling out taxpayer money to fight AIDS? I'll repeat that the one dishing oout the money is going to control how it is spent to some degree. I don't believe in the government writing blank checks. We'll have to agree to disagree on effective strategies for fighting AIDS and to what extent the US should even be involved in fighting AIDS in every corner of the Earth. There is legitimate debate, for instance, on both sides of the clean needles issue. No need to demonize the other side.


Please leave Jesus out of it. It's such a pandora's box.

Ii don't agree with referring to an astinence only program as dangerous. Call it ineffective or foolish perhaps but dangerous?
Who would argue that abstinence isn't the first line of defense anyway?

Ii guess you really have it in for me BVS. Just refresh me on whatever questions I didn't answer, redirect me to the link and I'll be glad to answer any questions you may have.


Teta040, you want to see a real theocracy move to Iran. Or try to debate social conservative philosophy with logic and leave out the religious histrionics. Because it's not just Bush you're badmouthing, it's half of America
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Old 03-01-2005, 02:22 AM   #20
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fucking moralising when people are dying ~ we live in the world as it is, not as it should be, any realist would work the problem and not attatch impossible conditions.
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Old 03-01-2005, 02:46 AM   #21
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[Q]The White House move comes as Republican lawmakers have been pressing the administration to cut off funds to private organizations that encourage clean-needle programs overseas for intravenous drug users -- a group at the center of the AIDS epidemic in Central Asia and other areas. Some also are pressing to ban federal funding of all AIDS organizations that fail to accept the president's social agenda on such issues as sexual abstinence and drug abuse.[/Q]

You do understand that we are living in the year 2005 and not the dark ages?

You do understand that the TWO largest ways this disease spreads is through sex and drug use?

You do understand that women account for 50% of the people living with AIDS worldwide?

You do understand that men who have sex with prostitutes, also come home and have sex with their wives and girlfriends?

You do understand that in sun-Sahara Africa women account for 57% of the cases of AIDS?

You do understand that 15-24 year olds account for almost half of the new cases of AIDS worldwide?

You do understand that there are 38 million people diagnosed with AIDS worldwide?

You do understand that in 2003, the world saw its largest single year growth in AIDS cases with (5 million) with 3 Million cases in Africa alone?

You do understand that in Africa, among 15-20 year olds in Africa there are 12 women infected for every 10 men. That in some places men believe that they if they have sex with a virgin, they will be cured?

In Kenya and Mali the UN believes there are 45 women infected to every 10 men?

Rant over!

[Q]If prostitution and drug use contribute to the spread of AIDS, what's wrong with condemning them as you're doling out taxpayer money to fight AIDS? I'll repeat that the one dishing oout the money is going to control how it is spent to some degree. I don't believe in the government writing blank checks. We'll have to agree to disagree on effective strategies for fighting AIDS and to what extent the US should even be involved in fighting AIDS in every corner of the Earth. There is legitimate debate, for instance, on both sides of the clean needles issue. No need to demonize the other side. [/Q]

I am curious about the other message of Christ? The one where you feed and take care of the sick and poor and love thy neighbor? Oh yes, and whatever you do to the least of my brothers............

I'm sorry, leave religion out of it OK?

#1 yes the US should have say in the control of the money it spends. That does not mean we IGNORE the science behind the disease. It is a disease that has to be AQUIRED the A in AIDS stands for something.

#2 Aquired means that the person getting the disease, has to be participating in a behavior that has caused them to get the disease.

#3 Sex and Needle use are the two main behaviors that cause people to AQUIRE the disease.

#4 The United States is NOT FUNDING AIDS fighting worldwide. In Africa the US has limited which countries it is working to fight AIDS in. Go to http://www.cfr.org/search.php and do a search on AIDS and US. You will get the facts from the COuncil on Foreign Relations. To relax your concerns, we are not fighting it World Wide.

#5 With 12 million children orphaned, who do you think is working in some countries to help the family survive? What choices do women have in some of these countries worldwide?

#6 Do you think a male with AIDS only has sex with a prostitute? Or maybe there are VITCIMS at home, ie their wife or wives since in many places of the world polygamy is the way of life.

#7 Do you have ANY EVIDENCE that witholding needles has stopped any HEROIN addict from doing their drug? There is plenty of evidence that using and sharing needles spreads the disease.

#8 Former U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell said, “The HIV/AIDS crisis is bad. It’s pandemic. It’s a weapon of mass destruction. Millions and millions of people are at risk, and its not just a human issue, it’s a political issue. It’s the destruction of society, the destruction of countries, the destruction of hope for a better life."

#9 In Africa this past week approximately 5,700 people were buried each day. Africa is averaging about 40,000 dead a week.

#10 The U.S. National Security Council has identified AIDS as a threat to US national security, because the deaths from AIDS could cause governments to fall and wars to begin.

#11 The United States intelligence estimate of 2000 indicates that our government expects one fourth of the population of southern Africa to die of AIDS.


[Q]Please leave Jesus out of it. It's such a pandora's box.[/Q]

Are you asking your President to leave Jesus out of this? Lets not debate the issue over religion I agree. Let's stick to the science, and fight the disease effectively because you are right, ABSTINENCE should be part of it. It should not be the ONLY PART because scientifically the plan that the article refers to is removing two of the more effective components of fighting the disease. It should not be A or B it should be A and B.

AS an American citizen who IS concerned at the INEFFECTIVE spending of money, I look at this plan and I am upset because IT IS NOT a plan that will make an impact because it is not included the MOST important measures that will impact the spread of the disease.
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Old 03-01-2005, 03:40 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by drhark

Ii don't agree with referring to an astinence only program as dangerous. Call it ineffective or foolish perhaps but dangerous?
Who would argue that abstinence isn't the first line of defense anyway?

Ii guess you really have it in for me BVS. Just refresh me on whatever questions I didn't answer, redirect me to the link and I'll be glad to answer any questions you may have.
If you want to continue the abstinence only agenda talk about it in "Bush's Sex Scandal"

http://forum.interference.com/showth...8&pagenumber=3

For it has no place in here.

As for the rest of your post A_wanderer and Dreadsox said everything I wanted to say and even better so there's no need to repeat.
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Old 03-01-2005, 05:05 AM   #23
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Yes of course abstinence can save lives, but so can practicality and being realistic. There have been studies about the flaws in abstinence only programs, I believe there have been threads here about it.

While we argue about that and what Jesus said, how many people are becoming infected and dying?

I believe Jesus also said "Whatsoever you do to the least of my
brothers and sisters you do to me."

I know that just speaking for myself, I could never visit someone who has AIDS or hold a baby who is dying of AIDS and then turn around and make any moral judgments about the funding that is needed, or about whether they contacted it via drugs, prostitution, or whatever. I have to wonder if President Bush has ever done that.
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Old 03-01-2005, 09:27 AM   #24
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Thanks for bringing this to the forum Mrs. S.
I read about this yesterday and was again further appalled by this admin. first the gag rule, now this much further reaching rule. They make me f**king sick. The Pharisee's indeed.

They are also single handedly holding up the Global Women's initiative.
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Old 03-01-2005, 11:03 AM   #25
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Is there no merit in try to discourage prostitution? Is there a benefit to trying to discourage prostitution?
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Old 03-01-2005, 11:07 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


If you want to continue the abstinence only agenda talk about it in "Bush's Sex Scandal"

http://forum.interference.com/showth...8&pagenumber=3

For it has no place in here.

As for the rest of your post A_wanderer and Dreadsox said everything I wanted to say and even better so there's no need to repeat.
Thank you. I'm getting sick of every thread turning into that.
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Old 03-01-2005, 11:08 AM   #27
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Originally posted by nbcrusader
Is there no merit in try to discourage prostitution? Is there a benefit to trying to discourage prostitution?


legalize it, regulate it, and test prostitutes regularly for STDs, i say. the only bad things that arise from the profession of prostitution -- whatever damage might be done to a marrige or whatever is the fault of the John, not the prostitute -- come from its illegality.

as for Africa, good gosh, let's fight the real problem -- AIDS -- and worry about the old-as-time practice of prostitution another day.
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Old 03-01-2005, 11:23 AM   #28
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Originally posted by nbcrusader
Is there no merit in try to discourage prostitution? Is there a benefit to trying to discourage prostitution?
Where is the merit in promoting a policy that wastes my tax dollars and does VERY LITTLE to stop innocent wives from contracting AIDS by husbands who visit prostitutes.

No there is nothing wrong with discouraging prostitution. Did ANYONE in here say that?

Let me check the thread....no nobody said that. I am disappointed if this is what you are getting from the conversation.

The fact is, more and more children in the regions devistated by AIDS are becoming the providers for their family. Where in the program is the plan to do something so that the young women do not have to turn to this option to survive. We are talking about numbers of orphans beyond comprehension. We are talking about a regions whose economy is already devistated and will continue to suffer as the working age adults die, or become incapacitated because they are too weak to work from the disease.

No, there is nothing wrong with it! Is there something wrong with promoting the end of prostitution and promoting condom use and clean needles? Or does it have to be all or nothing?

Which is the more effective way of stopping the spread of the disease, urging women to not be prostitutes when they have very little else to bolster their already decimated family? Where is the PLAN, besides promoting the AGENDA. The fact is there is no PLAN other than to not use measures that WORK.

And the wives at home, whose husbands are visiting prostitutes, who are in DANGER, in regions where multiple WIVES is not uncommon, in regions where women account for almost 60% of all AIDS cases, where is the JUSTICE of not using the money to help them with an effective program? Telling people that prostitution is bad is not going to stop it from occuring when it is a matter of survival for some. However, promoting the use of the condom, is going to prevent innocent women and children from contracting the disease.


The Council on Foreign relations has PLENTY of articles outlining the problems of the "PLAN". They are not some left wing site. They are some of the most brilliant foreign policy analists in the world.

Where is your evidence that there has EVER been a successful campaign to stop prostitution? Where is your evidence that this is an effective way to stop the spread of AIDS?


Which is the greater evil, being moral and upright by taking a stand on prostitution, providing NO OTHER RESOURCE to turn to for survival, and put innocent people(Women and Children) in a greater rsik contract the disease? Or providing a program fro condoms and needles that will help protect the innocent?
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Old 03-01-2005, 11:27 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
legalize it, regulate it, and test prostitutes regularly for STDs, i say. the only bad things that arise from the profession of prostitution -- whatever damage might be done to a marrige or whatever is the fault of the John, not the prostitute -- come from its illegality.

as for Africa, good gosh, let's fight the real problem -- AIDS -- and worry about the old-as-time practice of prostitution another day.
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Old 03-01-2005, 11:30 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511




legalize it, regulate it, and test prostitutes regularly for STDs, i say. the only bad things that arise from the profession of prostitution -- whatever damage might be done to a marrige or whatever is the fault of the John, not the prostitute -- come from its illegality.

as for Africa, good gosh, let's fight the real problem -- AIDS -- and worry about the old-as-time practice of prostitution another day.


Prostitution is not going to go away so instead of wasting so much money and time arresting and re-arresting prostitutes and their clients, why not get some control over it by regulating it?
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