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Old 05-30-2006, 03:19 PM   #16
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http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?n...id=574908&rfi=

“This crime was about race,”Assistant District Attorney Mariela Herring, the chief of the district attorney’s Gang Violence and Hate Crimes Bureau, told jurors in her Monday morning opening statement in Kew Gardens Supreme Court. “Nicholas Minucci would not have given these men a second look if they were three whites from Howard Beach.”

Minucci faces a 19 count indictment that includes assault in the first and second degrees as hate crimes, robbery in the first and second degrees as hate crimes, criminal possession of stolen property and criminal possession of a weapon.

Wearing a white dress shirt, black slacks and necktie, the restive Minucci sat stoically on Monday morning and listened to Herring paint a portrait of him as an affluent, hate filled young man.
Herring told jurors that Minucci was driving a $60,000 SUV and wearing an $8,000 gold chain and $2,000 gold watch when he attacked Moore with the bat that sent Moore into a fit of convulsions that had blood dripping from his ear.
“This was not about want or greed,” Herring asserted. “This was about hate and feelings of superiority.”
The 240 pound Minucci stole Moore’s sneakers as trophies after bringing a hailstorm of punches, kicks and baseball bat blows down on the 165 pound Moore, Herring said.
While acknowledging that Moore’s friend, Richard Pope, 26, also of East New York, did give a statement to investigators they were in the neighborhood to steal a car, Herring reiterated that the accused had no knowledge of their intentions and could have called the police like any law abiding citizen would have if they believed something was afoot in their neighborhood.
“The color of their skin was just like wearing a sign that said ‘criminal,’” Herring said. “This case is not about the ‘n’ word and whether its meaning has changed. Clearly it has not,” she told the sixteen jurors, six of whom are black.

"Pope described how he fled after Minucci and Ench jumped from the Escalade at 78th Street and 160th Avenue, screaming the racial epithet and demanding to know what the three were doing in the neighborhood.
When asked by Herring what the yelling sounded like, Pope only replied, “It was kind of racial.”

http://wcbstv.com/topstories/local_story_145180205.html

"He had a screwdriver in his hand, swinging like this ... I'm not getting cut with no screwdriver," Minucci said.

The attack left Moore with a fractured skull, which Minucci claims happened when Moore hit the cement.

Moore has admitted he went to Howard Beach to steal a car. Minucci claimed Moore tried to rob him, saying race had nothing to do with it.

"It's nothing like a hate crime, the kid tried to rob me," Minucci said. "If one of my friends tried to rob me I'd do the same thing. It doesn't matter what color you are."

The defense has not yet decided whether Minucci, who faces up to 25 years in prison if convicted, will testify at the trial."
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Old 05-30-2006, 03:32 PM   #17
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How odd, I have iTunes set on random and while reading this thread RFK's speech announcing MLK's death just came on.


Racism is still alive and well in this country, and I see it almost every day in my own city and neighborhood, even in my own family (extended). For me, with my personal background, it's too difficult to just toss aside the N-word.
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Old 05-30-2006, 03:43 PM   #18
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Words like damn and hell have no connection to hatred and oppressive history of an entire race, that is sort of the point that can't be glossed over. When people use certain words it can indicate a complete insensitivity to how they hurt people-at the very least. At the very most, racism, sexism, homophobia, etc.

I have been shocked lately at how many times I've heard the word faggot in public, and used by adults, not kids or teenagers. Once it was used in reference to someone who may or may not be gay, the other to a describe a straight man's hairdo. I would never dream of uttering that word, I have always considered it hateful. People do feel free to use that word and others far more often than they would ever use the N word in public, that's for sure. Words are quite powerful, and in many cases are more hurtful than physical abuse could ever be. That's been my experience in life.

Does the use of racial slurs automatically indicate that someone is a racist? Are actions necessary to prove that?
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Old 05-30-2006, 03:59 PM   #19
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I didn't say intent, I said motive.

The beating has been established.

But was this a crime of revenge, buglary, or based purely on skin color or sexuality?
How does this change Glenn Moore's injuries? Or the result that should occur because of the injuries from the battery?

Motive is only needed as an element to support guilt. I think guilt was established when the bat hit Mr. Moore.
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Old 05-30-2006, 04:37 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


How does this change Glenn Moore's injuries?
No one's claiming it will change the injuries.
Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader

Motive is only needed as an element to support guilt. I think guilt was established when the bat hit Mr. Moore.
What if it was self defense, or the attack was provoked?
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Old 05-30-2006, 05:02 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
What if it was self defense, or the attack was provoked?
Great questions. How is this changed by race?

Run through the senarios based on the limited facts presented:

Mr. Moore goes to an area to steal a car (admitted).

According to defendant Minucci, Moore threatened Minucci with a screwdriver. He responded with a baseball bat.

If we take these representations as true, how does the utterance of a slur during the confrontation change the relative culpability of the individuals?

You are, in essense, suggesting that the standards for the defense of "self defense" be changed based on the color of individual's skin and the words used during an attack.
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Old 05-30-2006, 05:48 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


Great questions. How is this changed by race?

Run through the senarios based on the limited facts presented:

Mr. Moore goes to an area to steal a car (admitted).

According to defendant Minucci, Moore threatened Minucci with a screwdriver. He responded with a baseball bat.

If we take these representations as true, how does the utterance of a slur during the confrontation change the relative culpability of the individuals?

You are, in essense, suggesting that the standards for the defense of "self defense" be changed based on the color of individual's skin and the words used during an attack.
No, I was speaking more in generalities.

Crimes are motivated by money, jealousy, power, and yes the hate of someone's skin color, religion, or sexuality...

To ignore that is turning a blind eye.
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Old 05-30-2006, 05:51 PM   #23
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"If one of my friends tried to rob me I'd do the same thing. It doesn't matter what color you are."
This is pure and utter bullshit!
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Old 05-30-2006, 06:08 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


No, I was speaking more in generalities.

Crimes are motivated by money, jealousy, power, and yes the hate of someone's skin color, religion, or sexuality...

To ignore that is turning a blind eye.
Are the motives criminalized in addition to the underlying crime?

This is not a matter of turning a blind eye. To the contrary, it is a distraction from the underlying crime - one that is highly politicized and inconsistently applied.
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Old 05-30-2006, 07:56 PM   #25
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All that stuff about the "n" word and another offensive racist words have always intrigued me, because we don't have words like that in my country. I mean, words like "negro" (black) or "mono" (a very casual way to call white, blond people) denote racial qualities but they aren't offensive at all, in fact, they are used like common nicknames
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Old 05-31-2006, 11:32 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by 4U2Play
Offensive words should be rendered harmless through repetition and mass usage.

Look at the words "cracker", "honky", "whitey" and "white boy". Any white people here offended by those words, as they are printed? Not me. I can't think of one single epithet relating to my race (white) that offends me, which is rather "empowering", to use a Dr. Philism.


Being overly sensitive to racial epithets only gives more power to those who wish to use them to hurt.
The reason you're not offended by "white" epithet is because you know that as a white person when a person uses those terms you really don't have much to be afraid of. These words don't have power, becuase YOU, as a white person, have the power. On the other hand, historically, and still today when someone uses the "N" word on a black person, that word holds the very real possiblity of being followed up by hatred and violence.

I also find it rather amazing when white people try to equate their experience with those of people of color. The experiences are not the same, not even close.

I also find myself tending to agree with Bill Cosby's rants of late--part of the problem is that black youth culture is in serious trouble. The misuse and overuse of the "N" word is just part of a much larger problem. Black youth culture (especially the music) has always had a certain "cool factor" but this is the first time in the history of Black America that the black youth culture represents something that is largely self-destructive and self-hating. There was genuine dignity in jazz, in blues, in rock and roll. This is lacking in much of hip hop, and this is what white youth are embracing. It's really, really sad.
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Old 05-31-2006, 12:55 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by maycocksean

The reason you're not offended by "white" epithet is because you know that as a white person when a person uses those terms you really don't have much to be afraid of. These words don't have power, becuase YOU, as a white person, have the power. On the other hand, historically, and still today when someone uses the "N" word on a black person, that word holds the very real possiblity of being followed up by hatred and violence.
Very well said, I agree
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Old 05-31-2006, 01:10 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by maycocksean
The reason you're not offended by "white" epithet is because you know that as a white person when a person uses those terms you really don't have much to be afraid of. These words don't have power, becuase YOU, as a white person, have the power. On the other hand, historically, and still today when someone uses the "N" word on a black person, that word holds the very real possiblity of being followed up by hatred and violence.
I understand the historical arguments, but when do they change?

Should anyone fear the use of a word if it is not followed with violence?

Do whites get to fear use of epithets if they are followed by violence?

Is there really a strong correlation between an utterance of the "N" word and violence?
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Old 05-31-2006, 01:26 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
Is there really a strong correlation between an utterance of the "N" word and violence?


historically? yes.

and are we only concerned with violence?

violence is merely one symptom of the problem. probably the easiest one to identify. racism takes on many, many faces, has many, many guises, and lurks in many, many facets of life. it's often not easy to see, or to recognize, and wishes of having a "colorblind society" are wishes of the oppressor, a luxury of someone who gets to go through life unaware of the color of his skin.

that said, i will say that sometimes the power structure behind epithets can be altered due to circumstance. as i've mentioned before, i live in a very diverse city in a *very* diverse neighborhood. i've twice had racial slurs yelled at me. i was once called a "fucking redneck" (which was funny, since i was looking pretty gay at the time) as well as a "fucking gringo" and both were said to me when i refused to give someone change, and both were said in anger. in that context, i was absolutely concerned about the possibility of violence as a white person.
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Old 05-31-2006, 01:50 PM   #30
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threat of violence was used as the basis to create different standards for use of epithets against whites vs. blacks.

I think the key to the issue in this thread is that we lose sight of the violence between people when we start looking at the color of those involved.
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