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Old 06-22-2004, 12:53 PM   #61
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Originally posted by ThatGuy
The fact is that the Red Cross has found that most people being held in these prisons don't belong in there anyway.
Is this from the Red Cross' military intelligence department?
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Old 06-22-2004, 01:13 PM   #62
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Originally posted by nbcrusader


Is this from the Red Cross' military intelligence department?
From page 8 of the ICRC report:

Quote:
Certain CF [Coalition Forces] intelligence officers told the ICRC that in their estimate between 70% and 90% of the persons deprived of their liberty in Iraq had been arrested by mistake.
You can read the report here (pdf file).
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Old 06-22-2004, 01:47 PM   #63
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Persons deprived of their liberty?

Is that a fancy ICRC codeword for arrested, sure most may be innocent men when they are taken in off the street in Iraq during security sweeps or everyday but I doubt that 70 to 90 percent of those who are locked up for more than a week are totally innocent, I somehow doubt that when you are running a counterinsurgency sweep in Tikrit and you find a bomb making workshop in a shed and arrest all the men of the household most of whom are probably innocent but hold them until you can determine the facts of the situation is an unreasonably way to deal.

Secondly I think that those who were abused at Abu Ghraib were part of a single wing of the the prison reserved for higher level prisoners who could yield information that would save lives.
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Old 06-22-2004, 02:06 PM   #64
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Certain CF [Coalition Forces] intelligence officers told the ICRC
Good quote hunting by the ICRC!
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Old 06-22-2004, 02:24 PM   #65
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So now the ICRC has a liberal bias?

Seriously, I encourage everyone to read the entire report.
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Old 06-22-2004, 03:01 PM   #66
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I am also becoming fed up with some of these people are being defended and taken up for by some of you.
Well I'm sick of some of you defending and taking up for US's methods. (and if that happened to a US citizen in Iraq? There'd be outrage all over. Double standards? You bet.)
If we've come to "the end justifies the means", well, isn't that getting closer to the terrorist's track of mind?

"If they are in prison there must be a reason". Um yeah, nice logic.
I bet a healthy percent of those in Guantanamo, Afghanistan or Abu Ghraib are/were innocent men at the wrong place at the wrong time, or at least regular criminals with no connection with terrorists. They deserve an attorney and to know what they're charged with. (international law) We can not just talk of democracy and not apply it to others.

BTW, I also remember stories I could tell here but I won't.

Wanderer: nope, you must have forgotten US administration happily denying Guantanamo prisoners POW status. Otherwise, they'd get an attorney, their charges would be known to them and *gasp* they'd have to let them go since the war in Afghanistan/Iraq is over (or CHARGE them with something already!).
Like you said: they deserve fair trials and they should be punished by law, not by some sick and undercover military/intelligence "justice".

I don't think the system is bad just because OJ or mobsters get away, I'd also say in US it's often a case of who's got better lawyers, sadly. But even mafia with its codes of silence had people who would turn in the bigshots.
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Old 06-22-2004, 05:50 PM   #67
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That's extreme and ridiculous. If they did that there would be millions of them in there. I'm tired of fighting over this. I believe there must be good reasons those particular people are in there, but no one can prove it to you because it's not information that the public knows. Don't complain too much, some people would have just taken them out and shot them and dumped the bodies and nobody would ever have known. I am also becoming fed up with some of these people are being defended and taken up for by some of you. They wouldn't do the same for you. I'm sick of it all
That's BULLSHIT! What I'm sick of is people automatically claiming because I don't agree with some of the policies of this administration then I must be defending "enemies". This argument is so misguided and defective it's not even funny. You can hide behind stories of a justice system that doesn't work "with this kind" or just turn a blind eye because honestly it doesn't matter to you, these infringments of human rights will never affect you. You're safe and as long as you are safe then it's OK.
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Old 06-22-2004, 06:03 PM   #68
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Here:

http://news.amnesty.org/mav/index/ENGAMR516222004

you can read an article from Terry Waite. He is the former special envoy to the Archbishop of Canterbury. He was held captive in Beirut from 1987 to 1991 to get an idea about how tortured people feel
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Old 06-22-2004, 06:05 PM   #69
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Bonovoxsupastar I didn't mean you defended them, but some other ones do seem to be doing that.

I am tired of fighting about it and I am sick of it all, and I had better keep my mouth shut because I will only get myself flamed if I spoke my mind
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Old 06-29-2004, 01:28 AM   #70
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This article is very interesting it is about the former Iraqi prisoners under Saddam, one story that should remind people about the brutality involves a pregnant woman and her husband and ends in three deaths.

http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article....ticle_id=4206#
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Old 06-30-2004, 06:55 AM   #71
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And here we can read and learn how the current government tries to block and stonewall the scandal:

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/06/30/op...30WED1.html?th

Quote:
The Pentagon has also not turned over to the Senate the full report by Maj. Gen. Antonio Taguba, who conducted the Army's biggest investigation so far into abuses at Abu Ghraib. The Pentagon has still not accounted for the 2,000 pages missing from his 6,000-page file when it was given to the Senate Armed Services Committee more than a month ago; the missing pages include draft documents on interrogation techniques for Iraq. The committee's chairman, Senator John Warner, said last week that Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld had assured him that he was working on the problem. Mr. Warner's faith seems deeply misplaced.

Mr. Rumsfeld's handling of another issue, the Red Cross reports on Iraq, is the most outrageous example of the administration's bad faith on the prison scandal. The Bush administration has cited Red Cross confidentiality policies to explain its failure to give up the reports. The trouble is, the Red Cross has repeatedly told the administration to go ahead and share the agency's findings with Congress, as long as steps are taken to prevent leaks.

On May 7, the Senate armed services panel asked Mr. Rumsfeld for these reports on widespread abuse in the military prisons in Iraq; one of the reports had already appeared on the Internet. Mr. Rumsfeld assured the committee that he would turn them over, if the Red Cross agreed. Mr. Rumsfeld and his aides have not handed over the reports 40 in all, including 24 from Iraq. Over the weeks, the Pentagon has assured increasingly angry senators that it was negotiating with the Red Cross, and then offered the rather absurd claim that it was still "collecting" the documents.

In fact, the International Red Cross gave its consent within 24 hours of Mr. Rumsfeld's empty promise, and has repeated it several times.
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Old 07-17-2004, 04:05 AM   #72
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Anyone heard about the torture from childeren in front of thier parents ?
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Old 07-17-2004, 07:24 AM   #73
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Quote:
Originally posted by U2Kitten
Bonovoxsupastar I didn't mean you defended them, but some other ones do seem to be doing that.

I am tired of fighting about it and I am sick of it all, and I had better keep my mouth shut because I will only get myself flamed if I spoke my mind
don't go into politics, my dearie.
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Old 07-23-2004, 04:12 AM   #74
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I've read today that the US army investigated 125 cases of Abuse in Iraqi prisons and 94 were abuse and humiliation.
Lieutenant-General Paul T. Mikolashek said that they are 94isolated cases and he can see no patern of abuse here.
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Old 07-23-2004, 10:14 AM   #75
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Originally posted by Basstrap


don't go into politics, my dearie.
You can certainly trust me not to do this! I'm not running for dog catcher! No thanks, I'd hate to cut into the time I have to do art more than anything else!
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