New Abu Ghraib Torture Video's Released

[nbcrusader]

The fact is that the Red Cross has found that most people being held in these prisons don't belong in there anyway.

Is this from the Red Cross' military intelligence department?

 

[ThatGuy]

Is this from the Red Cross' military intelligence department?

From page 8 of the ICRC report:

Certain CF [Coalition Forces] intelligence officers told the ICRC that in their estimate between 70% and 90% of the persons deprived of their liberty in Iraq had been arrested by mistake.

You can read the report here (pdf file).

 

[A_Wanderer]

Persons deprived of their liberty?

Is that a fancy ICRC codeword for arrested, sure most may be innocent men when they are taken in off the street in Iraq during security sweeps or everyday but I doubt that 70 to 90 percent of those who are locked up for more than a week are totally innocent, I somehow doubt that when you are running a counterinsurgency sweep in Tikrit and you find a bomb making workshop in a shed and arrest all the men of the household most of whom are probably innocent but hold them until you can determine the facts of the situation is an unreasonably way to deal.

Secondly I think that those who were abused at Abu Ghraib were part of a single wing of the the prison reserved for higher level prisoners who could yield information that would save lives.

 

[nbcrusader]

Certain CF [Coalition Forces] intelligence officers told the ICRC

Good quote hunting by the ICRC!

 

[ThatGuy]

So now the ICRC has a liberal bias?

Seriously, I encourage everyone to read the entire report.

 

[U2girl]

I am also becoming fed up with some of these people are being defended and taken up for by some of you.

Well I'm sick of some of you defending and taking up for US's methods. (and if that happened to a US citizen in Iraq? There'd be outrage all over. Double standards? You bet.)
If we've come to "the end justifies the means", well, isn't that getting closer to the terrorist's track of mind?

"If they are in prison there must be a reason". Um yeah, nice logic.
I bet a healthy percent of those in Guantanamo, Afghanistan or Abu Ghraib are/were innocent men at the wrong place at the wrong time, or at least regular criminals with no connection with terrorists. They deserve an attorney and to know what they're charged with. (international law) We can not just talk of democracy and not apply it to others.

BTW, I also remember stories I could tell here but I won't.

Wanderer: nope, you must have forgotten US administration happily denying Guantanamo prisoners POW status. Otherwise, they'd get an attorney, their charges would be known to them and *gasp* they'd have to let them go since the war in Afghanistan/Iraq is over (or CHARGE them with something already!).
Like you said: they deserve fair trials and they should be punished by law, not by some sick and undercover military/intelligence "justice".

I don't think the system is bad just because OJ or mobsters get away, I'd also say in US it's often a case of who's got better lawyers, sadly. But even mafia with its codes of silence had people who would turn in the bigshots.

 

[BVS]

That's extreme and ridiculous. If they did that there would be millions of them in there. I'm tired of fighting over this. I believe there must be good reasons those particular people are in there, but no one can prove it to you because it's not information that the public knows. Don't complain too much, some people would have just taken them out and shot them and dumped the bodies and nobody would ever have known. I am also becoming fed up with some of these people are being defended and taken up for by some of you. They wouldn't do the same for you. I'm sick of it all

That's BULLSHIT! What I'm sick of is people automatically claiming because I don't agree with some of the policies of this administration then I must be defending "enemies". This argument is so misguided and defective it's not even funny. You can hide behind stories of a justice system that doesn't work "with this kind" or just turn a blind eye because honestly it doesn't matter to you, these infringments of human rights will never affect you. You're safe and as long as you are safe then it's OK.

 

[Klaus]

Here:

http://news.amnesty.org/mav/index/ENGAMR516222004

you can read an article from Terry Waite. He is the former special envoy to the Archbishop of Canterbury. He was held captive in Beirut from 1987 to 1991 to get an idea about how tortured people feel

 

[U2Kitten]

Bonovoxsupastar I didn't mean you defended them, but some other ones do seem to be doing that.

I am tired of fighting about it and I am sick of it all, and I had better keep my mouth shut because I will only get myself flamed if I spoke my mind

 

[A_Wanderer]

This article is very interesting it is about the former Iraqi prisoners under Saddam, one story that should remind people about the brutality involves a pregnant woman and her husband and ends in three deaths.

http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=10&categ_id=2&article_id=4206#

 

[Klaus]

And here we can read and learn how the current government tries to block and stonewall the scandal:

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/06/30/opinion/30WED1.html?th

The Pentagon has also not turned over to the Senate the full report by Maj. Gen. Antonio Taguba, who conducted the Army's biggest investigation so far into abuses at Abu Ghraib. The Pentagon has still not accounted for the 2,000 pages missing from his 6,000-page file when it was given to the Senate Armed Services Committee more than a month ago; the missing pages include draft documents on interrogation techniques for Iraq. The committee's chairman, Senator John Warner, said last week that Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld had assured him that he was working on the problem. Mr. Warner's faith seems deeply misplaced.

Mr. Rumsfeld's handling of another issue, the Red Cross reports on Iraq, is the most outrageous example of the administration's bad faith on the prison scandal. The Bush administration has cited Red Cross confidentiality policies to explain its failure to give up the reports. The trouble is, the Red Cross has repeatedly told the administration to go ahead and share the agency's findings with Congress, as long as steps are taken to prevent leaks.

On May 7, the Senate armed services panel asked Mr. Rumsfeld for these reports on widespread abuse in the military prisons in Iraq; one of the reports had already appeared on the Internet. Mr. Rumsfeld assured the committee that he would turn them over, if the Red Cross agreed. Mr. Rumsfeld and his aides have not handed over the reports ? 40 in all, including 24 from Iraq. Over the weeks, the Pentagon has assured increasingly angry senators that it was negotiating with the Red Cross, and then offered the rather absurd claim that it was still "collecting" the documents.

In fact, the International Red Cross gave its consent within 24 hours of Mr. Rumsfeld's empty promise, and has repeated it several times.

 

[Rono]

Anyone heard about the torture from childeren in front of thier parents ?

 

[Basstrap]

Bonovoxsupastar I didn't mean you defended them, but some other ones do seem to be doing that.

I am tired of fighting about it and I am sick of it all, and I had better keep my mouth shut because I will only get myself flamed if I spoke my mind

don't go into politics, my dearie.

 

[Klaus]

I've read today that the US army investigated 125 cases of Abuse in Iraqi prisons and 94 were abuse and humiliation.
Lieutenant-General Paul T. Mikolashek said that they are 94isolated cases and he can see no patern of abuse here.

 

[verte76]

don't go into politics, my dearie.

You can certainly trust me not to do this! I'm not running for dog catcher! No thanks, I'd hate to cut into the time I have to do art more than anything else!

 

[ThatGuy]

Ninety-four bad apples, Klaus.

I wonder if the Army investigated any abuse claims from the so-called "ghost" detainees?

But I guess it doesn't matter because the ends justify the means.

 

[Klaus]

ThatGuy:
I don't think they investigated it because even for experienced politicans it's hard to convince public that these ghost detainees were also a evildoing of single soldiers

 

[Rono]

Anyone heard about the torture from childeren in front of thier parents ?

http://www.veteransforcommonsense.org/NewsArticle.cfm?ID=1802

 

[verte76]

Torturing children is so grotesque it makes me sick. It's horrible. I don't know why that isn't known in this country. It should be.

 

[A_Wanderer]

The Old Olympic Training regime is out and Udays special prize winning formula of strict training and torture is over, take a guess at what these instruments were used for - this is another example of why I think that nude male pyramids although disgusting are abuse and not torture.

Is that the Sarcophagus from 'The Mummy', Uday collected movie props?

Im sure that was just a special brace to help poor Iraqi's with broken legs recover.

No that is not a comb.

A big vice, surely this was part of Uday's Auto Shop.

The remaining prop from the Iraqi Olympic Teams performance of 'The Man in the Iron Mask"

 

[Klaus]

A_Wanderer:
So what's your point? Uday did it to his people so why can't we in the name of Freedom and Counterterrorism?

 

[A_Wanderer]

WTF??? Do you assume that I advocate this brutality, do you think that I am some sort of sadistic monster who believes that needless torture is justified. I am pointing this stuff out because you don't see it in the papers, I am doing this because it is too easy for people to look away from barbarity and say that War is Pointless and Iraqi's were better off under Saddam. Liberation is about saving people from this, it is about removing this regime from existence and allowing them to live their lives free from tyranny, I never ever advocate such criminal behaviour and to insinuate that I am trying to say that we should do the same things is downright wrong (I have also made it abundantly clear my opinion that in the case of the Ticking Timebomb Terrorist nonleatal and nonpermanent torture that is facilitated through the executive or judiciary is a definite option when many lives are at stake, this is worlds apart from advocating systematic torture as a means of interrogation or athletic motivation).

Take a good long look at what went on in Iraq pre-war and understand that that would have been a concequince of leaving Saddam in power, then ask yourself how many lives is such a peace worth.

 

[Klaus]

A_Wanderer:
I read about this years ago in the paper when it was NEWS.
No i don't think you're an advocate of this brutality, i simply can't find the missing link between the torture of Iraqi citizens by the US army and the posted pictures.

I'm well informed what hapened in Iraq under Mr. Hussein and i'm well informed what hapened in Iraq when the coalition of the willing were there.
I'm also updating my information about Iraq under the new Iraqi non elected government and i'm looking forward to see the first democratic elections there

 

[A_Wanderer]

This thread was never about torture by the US army it was about the Abu Ghraib torture video containing torture by Saddams thugs, as I said then and I reiterate now, most of what I saw done by the US army in the Abu Ghraib pictures was abuse, that was a failure of leadership and I am quite sure if they were systematically torturing prisoners in a high security wing they would use techniques that dont resemble a hazing ceremony. There is a very definite link between this thread and those pictures. The simply truth is that this video got bugger all attention in the media (1 article and 1 editorial within 2 weeks of its release) and I think that its important that people see what went on in Iraq before the war.

 

[Klaus]

I'm Sorry A_Wanderer, i mixed up the threads - my fault