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Old 06-21-2004, 10:16 AM   #31
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I will be more than willing to concede that there was involvement when I see the evidence, I don't know if the context of these meetings and reports, who they are in regard to and what groups they were meant to govern. Was it for CIA, MI or Standard Procedure, when the facts are on the table I will make up my own mind.
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Old 06-21-2004, 10:28 AM   #32
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I can see clearly a patern here.

The Administration fooled us for years:

They justified the treatment far away from all laws with the danger of these persons.

Quote:
Mr. Rumsfeld:

"We are keeping them off the street and out of the airlines and out of nuclear power plants and out of ports across this country and across other countries,"
They clamed that people who criticized the new inhumane treatment of US prisinors are unpatriotic or even antiamericans.

Now we find out that the administration abused the patriotism and fear of their citicens. The current government betrayed the ideals of the USA and their version of justice is close to the justice spoken by emperors of the dark age.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/06/21/po...21GITM.html?th

Quote:
In interviews, dozens of high-level military, intelligence and law-enforcement officials in the United States, Europe and the Middle East said that contrary to the repeated assertions of senior administration officials, none of the detainees at the United States Naval Base at Guantánamo Bay ranked as leaders or senior operatives of Al Qaeda. They said only a relative handful — some put the number at about a dozen, others more than two dozen — were sworn Qaeda members or other militants able to elucidate the organization's inner workings.
This article is 7 pages long and because it's the NYTimes it's only possible to read it the next days free of charge but i can encourage everyone to read it.
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Old 06-21-2004, 10:35 AM   #33
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Remember that the US runs more secretive detention facilities all over the world from Kabul to Diego Garcia. It doesnt surprise me if there are not senior Al Qaeda leaders are not held there, they are more likely to be held in places where there isn't the oversight that stifles most high level interrogations. I again point to Khalid Shiek Mohammed as an example of somebody that knows a lot about the locations and plans of the top leadership who would only have been a truly viable source of information in the first few days of his capture while he was still in a high state of fear and would leak information easily if pressed in the right way.

The treatment would of course be non-leathal and would give us the information needed to crack the network to a degree thus preventing terrorist strikes. Guantanamo is a useful thing becauase it is a big obvious contentious thing where there is too much oversight for anything that bad to go on and it attracts the flak while the real operations go on covertly.
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Old 06-21-2004, 10:42 AM   #34
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It's a good thing that dangerous people are imprisoned but i can't see ANY reason why these people are treated outside the law.
Why have some of them no chance to consult an attorney? Why has the IRC no chance to visit some of them? Why are some punished before their guilt is proven in a legal courtroom?

Does the Administration and the military know who's bad and who's good so we don't need courtrooms at all?
If yes, that's excelent. If Administration + the Military are infallible let's treat all americans in this manner if they are not infallible give every human being - even the worst one a treatment which dosn't conflict with national and international standards of human rights and imprisonment.
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Old 06-21-2004, 10:44 AM   #35
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Originally posted by Klaus
They clamed that people who criticized the new inhumane treatment of US prisinors are unpatriotic or even antiamericans.
Who is "THEY" and where are the quotes?
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Old 06-21-2004, 10:50 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by Klaus
Why are some punished before their guilt is proven in a legal courtroom?

How would you propose to achieve this? Who would be the witnesses, the other prisoners who would die a thousand times before they'd rat their comrade out to the infidel? Again, this is a situation with a different type of people and it requires a different set of rules. You can't have a normal American style trial with them!
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Old 06-21-2004, 10:51 AM   #37
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They are the ones that told Karpinsky to ignore what was going on in the name of national security .
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Old 06-21-2004, 11:55 AM   #38
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U2Kitten:
Letting the IRC do their job would have bin a good 1st step
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Old 06-21-2004, 12:30 PM   #39
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But it's too late now. Like right now in my other browser, I'm fighting with my brother, he's putting me down for stuff in my personal life and saying how I should have done this or should not have done that years ago. Maybe that's true, but it's not doing me any good now. We have to go on from here. Same with this prisoner situation.
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Old 06-21-2004, 01:15 PM   #40
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Ok than let's learn from the mistakes we've done and give INDEPENDENT people and competent people like ai or other Human Rights groups the chance to bring light in that cases.
And let's learn from the mistakes and don't trust ANY government with closed eyes. Obviosely it's too much temptation to abuse power if there isn't enough control
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Old 06-21-2004, 01:22 PM   #41
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I don't trust my government, anyone's government, even my own family with closed eyes. But I do believe there are reasons for keeping those guys there, and I'm sure it has to do with security reasons they can't reveal publically. They can't be tried in a normal trial as I posted before, but they don't feel safe letting them go. We will find out the truth one day, good or bad.
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Old 06-21-2004, 01:46 PM   #42
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Plus detentaion w/o trial for 5 years is bound to ammount to a multi billion dollar class action against the US government.
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Old 06-21-2004, 01:47 PM   #43
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Provided they are innocent of course.
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Old 06-21-2004, 02:28 PM   #44
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*sigh* U2Kitten and Wanderer, I will not argue with you on this.

I do not blame US or the whole of the West for what happened, nor do I have a problem with American people. However I do have a problem with US administration's handling of the matters - especially since they lead the "coalition" which represents the West, so ultimately they ought to be accountable.

In fact, any government that allows this kind of events deserves nothing good.

Again, because we have annoying little thingies like Rule of law, innocent-until-proven-guilty and Geneva convention, we should NOT stoop to the lows. The terrorists may not have rules, but WE do, it does not excuse us of not following them. For those very reasons, any "we're better than them" or "there's a long way to go" arguments fall miserably.

Lindsay England was on CNN saying she was instructed to do that by the military intelligence. A New Yorker article said Rumsfeld personally approved the Abu Ghraib tactics. (and Commander in Chief himself is ultimately responsible)

PS: Red Cross, in its reports said 70-90% in Abu Ghraib were innocent. INNOCENT POWs, not hard line terrorists.
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Old 06-21-2004, 02:36 PM   #45
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A_Wanderer:
So what's the problem, if they were innocent and in detentaion w/o trial for 5 years, why shouldn't they have the right to sue the responsible persons?
The government stole 5 years of their life and maybe turned their life into a horror-trip for these years.
Why shouldn't they get compensation for it?

U2Kitten:
Ok you don't trust your government with closed eyes - so what reasons do you think they have? Why do you think you can trust them in that case also the IRC and many from the US army said that there are about 50%-90% innocent people which should be treated as POW's?
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