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Old 10-15-2005, 04:07 PM   #1
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Neo-Nazi protest and riots in Ohio



[q]Nazi Gathering Turns Violent; 6 Arrested

1 hour, 14 minutes ago

TOLEDO, Ohio - A crowd that gathered to protest a white supremacists' march Saturday turned violent, throwing baseball-sized rocks at police and vandalizing vehicles.

Six people were arrested and police, fire and media vehicles were damaged, Police Chief Mike Navarre said.

At least two dozen members of the Roanoke, Va.-based National Socialist Movement, which calls itself "America's Nazi Party," gathered at a city park to march under police protection. Organizers said they were demonstrating against black gangs that were harassing white residents.

The march was canceled, and the violence broke out about a quarter mile away from the park along the planned route.

Keith White, a black resident, criticized city officials for initially allowing the march.

"They let them come here and expect this not to happen?" said White, 29.

Two hours after authorities called off the march, 150 officers in helicopters and cruisers and on foot, bicycles and horses continued to chase bands of youths.[/q]
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Old 10-15-2005, 09:15 PM   #2
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"Keith White, a black resident, criticized city officials for initially allowing the march."


I do not agree with the Nazis, but I do believe that all of us should have freedom of speech and the right to protest.

I'm just a fool who still thinks the Bill of Rights is a good idea.
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Old 10-16-2005, 12:07 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally posted by the iron horse
"Keith White, a black resident, criticized city officials for initially allowing the march."

I do not agree with the Nazis, but I do believe that all of us should have freedom of speech and the right to protest.

I'm just a fool who still thinks the Bill of Rights is a good idea.
Your response is very oversimplistic. You have to understand that white supremacist groups are highly duplicitous. Their strategy over the last few years have been to appear highly reasoned on television, but it is merely a ruse to obscure their irrational hatred.

The same reasoning goes with this "march." They never once intended to actually go through with this march; it has been their tactic to head into minority neighborhoods and have their mere presence to incite a riot. As such, even without the "march," the presence of a riot is a "victory." In fact, as they were being escorted out of the city for their protection, that's exactly what they declared: "victory."

In light of that, it is my view that they should no longer be allowed to march. "Freedom of speech" is a constitutionally protected right, yes. However, it is not a constitutionally-protected right to incite riots, and that's what these neo-Nazis have been doing in every city they visit.

Now just for the record, the city of Toledo did not support the Nazis' presence here; a permit was never issued. On the other hand, they did follow past constitutional precedent and did not prohibit them from marching.

Melon
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Old 10-16-2005, 08:36 AM   #4
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I disagree with the decision to allow them to march on the sidewalks.

The report I read said that they did not get a permit so they were allowed to march on the sidewalk.

This is clearly an attempt to circumvent the law on the chance that the permit was denied.

I am pretty sure the city would have had the right to determine the parade route, which would have forced the marchers to not be allowed into an area of town where trouble would erupt.

Walking on the sidewalks, is not acceptable, and should have been stopped.
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Old 10-16-2005, 09:40 PM   #5
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Originally posted by Dreadsox
I disagree with the decision to allow them to march on the sidewalks.

The report I read said that they did not get a permit so they were allowed to march on the sidewalk.

This is clearly an attempt to circumvent the law on the chance that the permit was denied.

I am pretty sure the city would have had the right to determine the parade route, which would have forced the marchers to not be allowed into an area of town where trouble would erupt.

Walking on the sidewalks, is not acceptable, and should have been stopped.
I am changing my mind having read more...apparently walking on sidewalks is an acceptable way to circumvent the law on permits...

Any clues as to why we seam to find it acceptable that a certain segment of our population uses things like this to destroy the neighborhood? Nazi groups hate more than blacks and I did not read about these other groups attacking police and fireman.
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Old 10-16-2005, 10:03 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox


I am changing my mind having read more...apparently walking on sidewalks is an acceptable way to circumvent the law on permits...

Any clues as to why we seam to find it acceptable that a certain segment of our population uses things like this to destroy the neighborhood? Nazi groups hate more than blacks and I did not read about these other groups attacking police and fireman.
It's not acceptable to me, and I have no idea why anyone would think that it is. Maybe they just buy the "freedom of speech" argument and are naive about their motives.
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Old 10-16-2005, 10:38 PM   #7
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Originally posted by verte76


It's not acceptable to me, and I have no idea why anyone would think that it is. Maybe they just buy the "freedom of speech" argument and are naive about their motives.
Maybe I did not word it correctly....

Their reaction to the Nazi group.....was not directed at the Nazi group....it was directed at police and fireman and local businesses ect....

Catholics and Jews are hated by the neo-Nazi's.....yet.....they are not tearing the neighborhood down.

I guess that was my point.
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Old 10-16-2005, 10:39 PM   #8
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I wish those who fought back in anger towards the Neo-Nazi's were strong enough to ignore them. Easier said than done. It is a shame that any of this took place.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051017/..._us/nazi_march
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Old 10-16-2005, 10:51 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
Catholics and Jews are hated by the neo-Nazi's.....yet.....they are not tearing the neighborhood down.

I guess that was my point.
Considering I have lived near Toledo most of my life and that I'm working there right now, realize that the Nazis did not march in a Catholic or Jewish neighborhood. In fact, the Nazis did not even go downtown, where crowd control would have been better. They purposely picked a heavily black neighborhood that had a relatively high crime rate.

In other words, the Nazis purposely provoked a bad neighborhood, just so they could sit back and say, "See? Those black gangs really ARE attacking white people." It's really a pity, overall.

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Old 10-16-2005, 11:06 PM   #10
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Originally posted by melon


Considering I have lived near Toledo most of my life and that I'm working there right now, realize that the Nazis did not march in a Catholic or Jewish neighborhood. In fact, the Nazis did not even go downtown, where crowd control would have been better. They purposely picked a heavily black neighborhood that had a relatively high crime rate.

In other words, the Nazis purposely provoked a bad neighborhood, just so they could sit back and say, "See? Those black gangs really ARE attacking white people." It's really a pity, overall.

Melon
But I go back to the reaction of Kieth:

[Q]Keith White, a black resident, criticized city officials for initially allowing the march.

"They let them come here and expect this not to happen?" said White, 29.[/Q]

1st they let them come here....my initial reaction....apparently they operated legally....

But, WHY should it be expected to happen? Would it happen in a Jewish or Catholic neighborhood?

It is the EXPECTATION that pisses me off.
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Old 10-17-2005, 01:02 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
But, WHY should it be expected to happen? Would it happen in a Jewish or Catholic neighborhood?
When was the last time neo-Nazis ever marched in a Jewish or Catholic neighborhood?

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Old 10-17-2005, 01:44 AM   #12
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When I read some posters here, I get the impression that apparently its the fault of the Blacks. Catholics and Jews wouldn´t have attacked the NeoNazis.

What?

Yeah, right. That´s what they say.

Wow.

Right. They shouldn´t have moved a finger and just let it happen. And next time the Nazis takes over your country, you should also let it happen Because that´s what happens when the people who oppose this are all quiet about it, just like in Europe 1938/39. Yeah, like the Catholics in Austria!

Nice historical parallels there, definitely.

Don´t fool yourself with wishing they were "strong enough to ignore them" MVD_75. That´s a noble wish, but it doesn´t work. Here, we say: "To ignore is to secretly agree".

I am glad if brave Afro-Americans attacked the NeoNazis. Shows me that some people actually got some of their brains left.

The Afro-Americans must have felt like Bush must feel when someone attacks America. Hell, the Nazis just went in there! It was provocation, it was an attack. They just defended themselves, and then some people here complain about collateral damage. Not very noble.
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Old 10-17-2005, 01:52 AM   #13
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Yeah I know it is only a dream to think that people are strong enough to ignore these types of demonstrations with out resorting to violence. It is also a dream to think that hate is no longer an issue here in the US or in the rest of the world.
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Old 10-17-2005, 02:15 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by MissVelvetDress_75
Yeah I know it is only a dream to think that people are strong enough to ignore these types of demonstrations with out resorting to violence. It is also a dream to think that hate is no longer an issue here in the US or in the rest of the world.
Agreed.

And because it is a dream, and not reality, some are strong enough to defend their beliefs. Like you all know, and like we have discussed in several other threads, this shit doesn´t happen here. When a group of Nazis gathers without permission, they will be arrested. They provocate and they trigger violent reactions. Enough reason to keep them off the streets.

Hahaha, comparing the Afro-Americans to the Catholics really cracked me up. Austro-fascism which we had before of Hitler, was installed by super conservative Catholics. And bling, when the Führer came to Heldenplatz, every jolly Christian went there to hail him! ohmy we had a good time there mate I tell ya!

The people who were against the dictatorship, went to the résistance. They actually did something and risked their lives. Got their heads chooped off for that kind of opposition.

Tolerate this kind of extremism long anough, and you might be facing the same dangers. With a few UNA bombers on the way there.
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Old 10-17-2005, 02:54 AM   #15
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hiphop, the attacks Dreadsox was condemning were against the police, not the neo-Nazis. Also, as regards Catholicism's relationship to all this, keep in mind that the Klu Klux Klan--our own homegrown hate group--were indeed fiercely anti-Catholic in their heyday, and that anti-Catholicism played a major role in the anti-Irish and anti-Polish bigotry so widespread in the US during the late 19th and early 20th centuries.

But back to Toledo...

To the extent that there are distinctly Jewish or Catholic neighborhoods in the area, their inhabitants are likely to enjoy far better relations with, and far more trust in, the police than inhabitants of a poor black neighborhood with a high crime rate. Jews and Catholics would also almost certainly be less likely to suspect some elements of the police of secretly sharing the Nazis' views of them. In a situation like this, with emotions running high, it thus would be much easier for anger at the neo-Nazis (symbols of WASP supremacism) to mutate into anger at the police who escorted them (perceived symbols of WASP authority).

I can understand Dreadsox's disapproval that a community leader would imply that the violence was inevitable. He could at least have prefaced his statement by acknowledging that attacking police was a seriously misguided way of expressing rage at neo-Nazis. (Then again, maybe he did and this story doesn't say it.) But in the end, I think melon has it right: in all likelihood, their whole goal was to start a riot.

Maybe in a perverse way it would be a good thing if they continued to use this strategy. If enough secondary conflict is generated by it, then the police might get fed up and ban or at least forcibly redirect their marches.

Neo-Nazis haven't tried marching on Jewish neighborhoods anytime recently, though Nazi-linked anti-Semitic activity (harrassment, propaganda and vandalism, mostly of synagogues, Jewish schools and cemeteries) has increased sharply during the last decade as these groups have become more organized, especially out East.

Catholics are not currently a favored target of many neo-fascist groups, though IMO it wouldn't be surprising if all the bad publicity the Catholic Church has had of late reawakened some "interest" of that sort.
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