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Old 10-18-2005, 09:47 AM   #61
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Originally posted by yolland

(BVS, I think there may be a terminal language gap here.)
Yeah, I'm seeing that now.
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Old 10-18-2005, 09:51 AM   #62
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer


There is an advantage to allowing these scumbags to speak, their true nature is revealed and they are quite effectively discredited.


This is true, but it can also have the opposite effect. If I have ideas that go in Nazi direction I can also think to join them. I would say, Oh look, there are a few brothers in there, why not join them and make them stronger?
And like me, other 100 people may do the same thought. That kind of speeches just bring turmoil, like in fact there was. There are many Nazi nostalgic hidden out there, many more than you can imagine. Why shall we give them the oportunity to come awake again...............
Remember that Hitler started with speeches in beerhouses...........
They could have stopped him, they let him free to express his hatred............................
How many deads can testify it.........................?
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Old 10-18-2005, 09:55 AM   #63
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar




We have all kinds of hate speech in this country. Hatred for all kinds. Some more "accepted" than others. Why should Nazi speech be considered abuse of speech, but politicians talking out against homosexuals not?




So you mean is just one more, where´s the difference?
If we´d talk about politicians hipocricy we would never end discussing........
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Old 10-18-2005, 10:00 AM   #64
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Quote:
Originally posted by yolland

I'm Jewish, my parents were the only survivors of the Holocaust in their respective families and I don't *automatically* conclude from that that neo-Nazis should not be allowed to march in America in 2005...

What are your criteria for "objectively" bad speech?



History speaks alone in the case of Nazis, isn´t it an objectively criteria enough....................................................?
What do your parents think about that march, yolland?
Their opinion would be much greater than mine
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Old 10-18-2005, 10:01 AM   #65
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Hitler was a different beast, the rise of fascism in Europe occured during a period of economic turmoil and political instability. They brought order, they projected idealism. These American Nazi groups, they only stand for race hate ~ they offer no political view that may seduce the middle classes, the people that are needed for any political change.
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Old 10-18-2005, 10:09 AM   #66
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Hitler was a different beast, the rise of fascism in Europe occured during a period of economic turmoil and political instability. They brought order, they projected idealism. These American Nazi groups, they only stand for race hate ~ they offer no political view that may seduce the middle classes, the people that are needed for any political change.


Maybe not in America, but in some other countries the danger would exist
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Old 10-18-2005, 10:15 AM   #67
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Originally posted by babyman

So you mean is just one more, where´s the difference?
There is no difference. Hate is hate. But my whole point is you can't censor ideas and speech. Once you censor this extreme, then the next extreme becomes closer to the middle. Then someone comes along and wants to censor that speech. Next thing you know your 12" ruler can only measure an inch.
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Old 10-18-2005, 10:17 AM   #68
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There is always insidious danger from government. Compromising freedoms such as freedom of speech to "improve" society by governments, to somehow socially engineer cohesion, is in my mind a much more dangerous thing than allowing those freedoms and the disturbances that they can sometimes yield.
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Old 10-18-2005, 10:32 AM   #69
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


There is no difference. Hate is hate. But my whole point is you can't censor ideas and speech. Once you censor this extreme, then the next extreme becomes closer to the middle. Then someone comes along and wants to censor that speech. Next thing you know your 12" ruler can only measure an inch.


Censoring Nazis doesn´t imply that the next step is going to be a continuing censor. It´s like when you have a bad fever, you take the medicine to get healed, but then you don´t let your body getting infected again being healthy.
I dislike censoring, it´s the worst thing there can be, but I don´t want to accept someone who makes of hatred his way of living. And that´s what marks Nazis.............................
I mean, why should I tolerate people who don´t tolerate other people? I don´t mean there must be a violence explosion against them, it would be like going on their own level, but I want that those specific kind of people stay away from me. I want to stay with people who share love to each other, should I got blamed for it?
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Old 10-18-2005, 10:36 AM   #70
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Originally posted by melon


I believe there is a distinction between "blatant prejudice" and "latent prejudice." As a society, we have made excellent strides towards removing "blatant prejudice," and that's why most reasonable people would never support what the Nazi party stands for.

However, there is "latent prejudice," which, by definition, is hidden and unconscious. And I hope you don't think I'm pointing fingers at you, because we're all guilty of it here and there. But "latent prejudice" does subtlely affect how we treat and perceive people who are "different" from us. And, in keeping with ideological criticism, the only way to help eliminate "latent prejudice" is to identify it out in the open and make it "blatant."
I think you've captured the current state of racial politics. The charge of "latent" racism carries the same weight as "blatant" racism when an individual is charged with racism (as you said, by design). But with no substance to clearly prove or deny the charge of racism, declaring "latent" racism can be a powerful tool.
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Old 10-18-2005, 10:43 AM   #71
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Quote:
Originally posted by babyman




Censoring Nazis doesn´t imply that the next step is going to be a continuing censor.
Yes it does. What you are essentially saying is one type of hate is worse than another. If you censor Nazis, then you have to censor the KKK, if you censor them then you have to censor the next group that's offended.

It's a slippery slope. The fever is not only the Nazi groups, so eliminating their speech will not CURE anything.
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Old 10-18-2005, 10:45 AM   #72
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Originally posted by nbcrusader


declaring "latent" racism can be a powerful tool.
Just as powerful as using "latent" racism?
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Old 10-18-2005, 10:48 AM   #73
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


I think you've captured the current state of racial politics. The charge of "latent" racism carries the same weight as "blatant" racism when an individual is charged with racism (as you said, by design). But with no substance to clearly prove or deny the charge of racism, declaring "latent" racism can be a powerful tool.


but there is substance, you just have to pay attention.

ever notice how in Europe, they are "ethnic groups" whereas in Africa they are "tribes"?

i don't think they carry the same weight, however.

there is latent, subtle racism postively everywhere, and the biggest barrier are people who need to hear the N word in order to accept even the possibility that something might be racist or prejudiced or stereotyped. you're never going to get the incotrovertable proof of racism that you would have in the past, but that doesn't meant it doesn't exist and it doesn't meant that it shouldn't be identified and verbally unpacked.
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Old 10-18-2005, 10:54 AM   #74
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Yes it does.

Not necessarly
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Old 10-18-2005, 10:57 AM   #75
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
I think you've captured the current state of racial politics. The charge of "latent" racism carries the same weight as "blatant" racism when an individual is charged with racism (as you said, by design). But with no substance to clearly prove or deny the charge of racism, declaring "latent" racism can be a powerful tool.
I just pointed out an example of "latent racism," so you can't just absolve yourself of all responsibility and run off as if nothing happened. We just had a large thread pointing out how "the blacks" rioted, while we didn't blame "the whites" for marching into the neighborhood to cause the riot.

It certainly IS a powerful tool, especially when it is abused or, most often, denied.

Melon
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