Neo-Con Fantasy

[ThatGuy]

Almost one year ago today ...

Richard Perle speaking at a luncheon for The American Enterprise Institute on September 22, 2003:

It's a pity that Turkey wasn't alongside us going into Iraq, not least of all because there are such important Turkish interests next door. I think it might have been different if it had been understood in Turkey that this was a war that would be over in three weeks with hardly any casualties, hardly any Iraqi casualties.

. . .

The problems in Iraq are ahead of us, but we're doing better than people think. And a year from now, I'll be very surprised if there is not some grand square in Baghdad that is named after President Bush.

. . .

But let me just say that the Iraqi people must choose their next government, their leaders. If they choose Ahmed Chelabi, I think they will have a very bright future.

I've known Ahmed Chelabi for more than a dozen years. He is a man, in my experience, of absolute integrity and courage, and he would be a great Iraqi leader.

I read stories all the time about how he has the backing of the Pentagon. Some of us who are connected one way or another to the Pentagon who know him have a high regard for him. But he doesn't have the backing of the Pentagon. Whatever he is able to accomplish in Iraq will be on the strength of his own abilities, his character, his intelligence, and his commitment to the freedom of the people of Iraq.

I can't imagine a leader who more fully embodies the values that caused the Americans to believe we should liberate Iraq. He believes in democracy. He believes in individual freedom. He's a Shia who does not want a theocracy in Iraq. And it pains me to see some officials of this government make disparaging remarks about him. For the most part, the disparagement comes from people who don't know him, who have never met him, and it's based on jealousies and in some cases embarrassment. Chelabi was right over many years when they were wrong.

So it's been troubling to see the disparagement of this great man. But I have complete confidence that his qualities will lead him into a position of leadership in Iraq.

. . .

But I find it very hard to believe that had we abandoned the sanctions and allowed Saddam to go back to business as usual that we would not have found weapons of mass destruction in Iraq's future. And I believe that when David Kay finishes his work that we will know a lot more about those programs, and we will be able to document the fact that he had weapons of mass destruction and may even now have some.

. . .

Now, how do we encourage democracy? There are a lot of ways to encourage it. The least preferred method is by toppling a dictatorship that stands in the way of democracy. Iraq was a unique situation, and I don't know anyone who's proposing that we launch wars to achieve democratic reform.

If Iraq is the success that I'm confident it will be--and we've got to give it a little while. It's absurd, the idea that you can judge an upheaval of the magnitude of Iraq in a hundred days. If Iraq turns out to be the success I'm confident it will be, I think others in the region will look at Iraq and say, Why can't we rid ourselves of a regime that's rather similar in some ways to the Iraqi regime? So the precedential effect of liberating Iraq may assist in bringing about democratic reform elsewhere.

 

[verte76]

Speaking of Turkey, they are absolutely furious at the U.S. for some activities involving members of the Turkish minority in northern Iraq and quite a dispute is going on between Washington and Ankara. I hope that when I go to Istanbul next year they won't be too mad at us.

 

[A_Wanderer]

to the neocons!

 

[STING2]

The war to remove Saddam from power was short, with very low losses on both sides. This is the war that Mr. Pearl is referring to, not the nation building phase that has come afterward.

Liberals claimed that the invasion of Iraq to remove Saddam would cost MILLIONS of lives and lead to the fall of most Arab governments in the region to radical Islamist elements. They predicted there would be over 900,000 refugees. The Liberals and other protesters were proven to be grossly wrong on these issues.

On the issue of WMD, Dr. Kay was not able to find the unaccounted for stocks and theorizes that Iraq had not active stocks of WMD at the time of the invasion. The important point here is that is a theory, NOT a fact.

There is only one FACT we do know, That SADDAM failed to VERIFIABLY DISARM of all WMD and account for thousands of liters of Anthrax, hundreds of pounds of Mustard Gas, hundreds of Pounds of Sarin Gas, and over 20,000 Bio/Chem capable shells that Saddam did have according to UN inspectors in November 1998. Saddam's failure to account for the stocks in 2002, made war a necessity.

 

[A_Wanderer]

We also know that he possesed weapons programs - the capacity to produce WMD, this has been proven since the war, in addition to some actual WMD - It is false to say no WMD rather no WMD stockpiles - its more correct. Now if you were to leave Saddam in power how long would you be willing to wait, how long would it be until that persistant threat became enough to act on? Two years, 6 years, when a democrat is president?

 

[iacrobat]

The problems in Iraq are ahead of us, but we're doing better than people think. And a year from now, I'll be very surprised if there is not some grand square in Baghdad that is named after President Bush.

Sounds to me like he thought everything would pretty much be wrapped up by now.

 

[Harper]

The war to remove Saddam from power was short, with very low losses on both sides. This is the war that Mr. Pearl is referring to, not the nation building phase that has come afterward.

This "Nation Building Phase" doesn't appear to have an end in sight - at least not for the dozens of people on all sides that are being killed each week. How long will it take to build this nation? How long will those who started the war stay and be killed among them?

 

[ThatGuy]

There is only one FACT we do know, That SADDAM failed to VERIFIABLY DISARM of all WMD and account for thousands of liters of Anthrax, hundreds of pounds of Mustard Gas, hundreds of Pounds of Sarin Gas, and over 20,000 Bio/Chem capable shells that Saddam did have according to UN inspectors in November 1998. Saddam's failure to account for the stocks in 2002, made war a necessity.

Hey, now we know two facts.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1095435840344_90845040?hub=World

So inspections were working?

 

[STING2]

Hey, now we know two facts.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1095435840344_90845040?hub=World

So inspections were working?

This report already states what is known. It is a fact that WMD has not been found. It is STILL A FACT that SADDAM failed to account for over a thousand liters of Anthrax, hundreds of pounds of mustard Gas, hundreds of pounds of sarin gas, and over 20,000 Bio/Chem capable shells! It is also still a FACT that Saddam failed to VERIFIABLY DISARM of all WMD. It is also a fact that SADDAM was in violation of 17 different UN resolutions passed under Chapter VII rules of the United Nations!

 

[STING2]

This "Nation Building Phase" doesn't appear to have an end in sight - at least not for the dozens of people on all sides that are being killed each week. How long will it take to build this nation? How long will those who started the war stay and be killed among them?

It is going to take years and years to build Iraq into a stable, properous democracy.

 

[deep]

This report already states what is known. It is a fact that WMD has not been found. It is STILL A FACT that SADDAM failed to account for over a thousand liters of Anthrax, hundreds of pounds of mustard Gas, hundreds of pounds of sarin gas, and over 20,000 Bio/Chem capable shells! It is also still a FACT that Saddam failed to VERIFIABLY DISARM of all WMD. It is also a fact that SADDAM was in violation of 17 different UN resolutions passed under Chapter VII rules of the United Nations!

Your logic suggest one could argue the Loch Ness monster exist. We just have not found it yet.


Get a reality check.

Rummy has tortured people to death. If there were any WMDs they would have been offered up.

 

[STING2]

Your logic suggest one could argue the Loch Ness monster exist. We just have not found it yet.


Get a reality check.

Rummy has tortured people to death. If there were any WMDs they would have been offered up.

Get a reality check and look up the UN inspectors findings in Iraq from 1991 to 1998. Also look up what Saddam did in the region as well as to his own people. It was the United Nations in 1991 that required SADDAM to VERIFIABLY DISARM or face renewed military action! It was the United Nations inspectors that reported in November 1998 that Saddam had failed to account for over 1,000 Liters of, hundreds of pounds of mustard gas, hundreds of pounds of sarin gas and over 20,000 Bio/Chem capable shells!

No one has ever proved they saw the loch ness monster, but there are Billions of documents and inspections which show the extent of Saddam's WMD programs and thousands of people have been killed as a result of that specifically.

But no, were supposed to let a person who murdered 1.7 million people get away with the "the dog ate my homework excuse". A person who invaded and attacked four different countries, used WMD more times than any leader in history, threatened the planets energy supply with seizure and sabotage, and was in violation of 17 UN resolutions should not be allowed to simply get away with it.

 

[Harper]

It is going to take years and years to build Iraq into a stable, properous democracy.

What are the odds of all those bereaved widows, parents and children erecting that statue of their saviour, George W Bush?

 

[STING2]

Many Iraqi's everyday already treat American military personal as friends and hero's. This is what US military personal who have served in Iraq are saying about their experience. My friends talk about how impressed they are with the new Iraqi police and military personal that they have met and worked with.

Saddam killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqi's and led to country into ruin with his adventures for personal power. The United States and the coalition has removed this dictator and allowed the Iraqi's to have a future that was before, unimaginable.

Kuwait already awarded Bush's father in a similar way, so it would not be surprise years from now when Iraq is a stable democracy to see them award Bush Jr. in a similar way.

 

[deep]

Kuwait already awarded Bush's father in a similar way, so it would not be surprise years from now when Iraq is a stable democracy to see them award Bush Jr. in a similar way.

Kuwait and women's rights

The Bush administration has made women's political participation a critical part of democracy-building in Iraq and Afghanistan, and both Bahrain and Qatar have granted women voting rights in the relatively recent past. But despite the fact that it boasts the first female Arab-Muslim ambassador to the United Nations, Kuwait is one of three countries on the Arab peninsula that has yet to grant women the right to vote or to run for parliament.
Kuwait boasts an educated female population that is an active part of the labor force. Although social limitations remain, women have reached prominent positions in both the government and the private sector. Kuwait's constitution guarantees that men and women are equal under the law, but Kuwait limits voting rights to males 21 years of age.

Kuwaiti indictees complain of torture

Saturday 11 September 2004 7:56 AM GMT

Kuwait has cracked down on groups opposed to foreign troops

A group of Kuwaiti Islamists have said they were made to confess to plotting attacks on foreign forces under duress.
The four Kuwaitis said statements admitting to plots to attack Iraq and Kuwait were extracted under physical and mental torture.


"We demand that our interrogation be repeated since we were forced to say what did not happen and things that we had nothing to do with," Hamad al-Harbi, Muhammad al-Asfur, Ahmad al-Utaibi and Badr al-Utaibi said in a joint statement in Kuwait City on Friday.

The four men were arrested in August on suspicion of being al-Qaida supporters and running a local network of young people with radical religious ideas seeking to fight US forces in Iraq and Kuwait.


Kuwaiti officials were not available for comment.


Abuse


The men, released earlier this month pending trial, told a news conference in the capital that after being arrested, they were handed over to state security officials and "most of us were subjected to beatings, torture and continuous insults".


"In this particular case, they asked a person to confess to incriminate himself and others he may not even know beforehand."


Most were ordered to repeat their fabricated confessions at the public prosecutor's office under threat of being mistreated, the men said.


They were held in isolation in prison and went on hunger strike for three days in protest, but were ordered to stop or face further abuse, they added.

Lost trust



The four men demanded that members of the Kuwaiti Parliament should publicly question Interior Minister, First Deputy Prime Minister Shaikh Nawaf al-Ahmad al-Sabah and Justice Minister Ahmad Baqar about the allegations.

"Such transgressions should not exist in a country that claims to have freedoms and to protect human rights," they said.


"If trust in the judiciary is lost then citizens and residents will have no trust in anything else."

Kuwait has tightened security after a surge in violence in Iraq and Saudi Arabia.

It has also cracked down on groups opposed to the presence of foreign troops, and has launched a state-wide awareness programme to combat what it calls religious extremism.

 

[Klaus]

Yeah, interesting that Kuwait didn't become a democracy after the western world liberated them. Or did they just help the Royal Family to control their country in exchange for $?

 

[Harper]

My son-in-law served with the British forces in Basra. Before he went he firmly believed in what he was doing (in what I admit I believe to be a sheep-like, mindlessly follow orders type fashion). He came home with a strong dislike of the Iraqi people after he found himself being shot at on a daily basis. He even disliked the young children he showed us his snapshots of - he despised the way they'd come around begging for water every day. He spoke of throwing stones at them. The coalition forces have a word they call Iraqis - like they called the vietnamese "Gooks." He also defends the abuse and torture of Iraqi prisoners. He's very open about these feelings and they're shared with the other blokes he served with.

Of course there are Iraqis who will be happy and friendly to the occupying forces, but this was also true of the occupied people of Europe toward the Nazis. For a lot of them it means survival.

 

[STING2]

My son-in-law served with the British forces in Basra. Before he went he firmly believed in what he was doing (in what I admit I believe to be a sheep-like, mindlessly follow orders type fashion). He came home with a strong dislike of the Iraqi people after he found himself being shot at on a daily basis. He even disliked the young children he showed us his snapshots of - he despised the way they'd come around begging for water every day. He spoke of throwing stones at them. The coalition forces have a word they call Iraqis - like they called the vietnamese "Gooks." He also defends the abuse and torture of Iraqi prisoners. He's very open about these feelings and they're shared with the other blokes he served with.

Of course there are Iraqis who will be happy and friendly to the occupying forces, but this was also true of the occupied people of Europe toward the Nazis. For a lot of them it means survival.

I wouldn't be comparing the coalition occupation to that of the Nazis. I have friends over on their second tours of duty in Iraq and they are in the heart of the SUNNI Triangle, where the overwhelming majority of the resistence is. They talk of Iraqi people that are friendly and helpful and are really impressed by the new Iraqi military and police force which they work closely day to day with.

 

[Harper]

I wouldn't be comparing the coalition occupation to that of the Nazis. I have friends over on their second tours of duty in Iraq and they are in the heart of the SUNNI Triangle, where the overwhelming majority of the resistence is. They talk of Iraqi people that are friendly and helpful and are really impressed by the new Iraqi military and police force which they work closely day to day with.

I can believe that and also believe that Iraq is better off without Saddam Hussein. If the war really had ended last May and things were peaceful there now I'd have a different view about the overall issue.

 

[A_Wanderer]

To believe that the coalition is on par with the Nazi's is an offence to those that serve and those countries within the coalition. Are you insinuating directly that the actions of the coalition forces are on par with the Wehrmacht? If so may you please cite the specific events of the coalition massacring with purpose civilians and the figures of civilians killed that even remotely compares to that of the Nazis.

I suspect the comment was reserved towards Iraqi's cooperating. In this instance I would disagree, Iraqi's want to survive, earn money and live in peace. They will work with their government becase that is the only power that can provide that.

 

[Harper]

Are you insinuating directly that the actions of the coalition forces are on par with the Wehrmacht?

Nope, I wasn't insinuating that. I was just stating that many people might choose to make the best for themselves out of a bad situation and try to get along with an occupying force rather than show resistance. That of course there are Iraqis who have genuine admiration for the coalition, but others might simply be playing the game.

 

[Klaus]

Anyone with comments about this serious problem?

He came home with a strong dislike of the Iraqi people after he found himself being shot at on a daily basis. He even disliked the young children he showed us his snapshots of - he despised the way they'd come around begging for water every day. He spoke of throwing stones at them. The coalition forces have a word they call Iraqis - like they called the vietnamese "Gooks." He also defends the abuse and torture of Iraqi prisoners. He's very open about these feelings and they're shared with the other blokes he served with.

 

[Sherry Darling]

Anyone with comments about this serious problem?

sd