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Old 12-06-2004, 05:11 PM   #106
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Originally posted by BostonAnne
I don't usually vent that loudly, but I am so sick of the scripture saying that homosexual people are sinning.
Agreed. I don't see how two people who are in a loving, consentual relationship is sinful. They're not harming anybody (that's the definition I personally use when it comes to the concept of sin-if it harms or kills its fellow man, it's sinful), so...I don't get it.

Angela
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Old 12-06-2004, 05:17 PM   #107
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Everyone who enters a church does so as a sinner. I'm not sure why we differentiate otherwise.
Usually when we all enter a Church, we are capable of committing the same sins. Considering a homosexual a sinner is exclusive. We should all be on the same ground of sin level when we walk into a Church.
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Old 12-06-2004, 05:23 PM   #108
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I am sorry to hear about the actions of your spouse. I was just reading Hebrews when I read your post. Perhaps you will find comfort in this:

"Remember those earlier days after you had received the light, when you stood your ground in a great contest in the face of suffering. Sometimes you were publicly exposed to insult and persecution; at other times you stood side by side with those who were so treated. You sympathized with those in prison and joyfully accepted the confiscation of your property, because you knew that you yourselves had better and lasting possessions. So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised." Hebrews 10:32-36
Thanks nbc. That is a very nice passage. I am looking forward to the next chapter in my life. My ex-in-process started the separation a little over a year ago, so it is strange to hear him being referred to as spouse. Unfortunately, the legal proceedings are slower than my coping process. About 2 months ago, I let it go and feel so much better.
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Old 12-06-2004, 05:37 PM   #109
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Usually when we all enter a Church, we are capable of committing the same sins. Considering a homosexual a sinner is exclusive. We should all be on the same ground of sin level when we walk into a Church.
I agree, and well said.
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Old 12-06-2004, 06:36 PM   #110
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Usually when we all enter a Church, we are capable of committing the same sins. Considering a homosexual a sinner is exclusive. We should all be on the same ground of sin level when we walk into a Church.
Perhaps this is a point of difference. I see myself as a sinner going into church. Not just capable of sin, but a sinner.

You can imagine the perspective from the other side when one suggests that they are not a sinner.
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Old 12-06-2004, 07:23 PM   #111
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I don't usually vent that loudly, but I am so sick of the scripture saying that homosexual people are sinning. The Morman religion wanted to follow the scriptures and allow polygamy. They wanted the law to change to reflect the scriptures. That didn't happen. The scriptures contained slaves and we as a society realized that was wrong. It is wrong to put a person with a different sexual preference on a different level of all of us.

Also, I would hope my marriage didn't end on such a simplistic thought as I mentioned. I'm not very Evanglical AND I was a U2 fan before I met the guy. U2 is 1983 - I met him in 1988. Obviously there is more to it, but his comments infuriated me just the same. A lot of time has passed where I am very over the loss & grief and I know I couldn't go back there. So no feeling bad for me - I'm beyond it all.
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Old 12-06-2004, 07:25 PM   #112
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. Very well said.

Angela
I second that emotion to Irvine's post and add
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Old 12-06-2004, 07:33 PM   #113
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Perhaps this is a point of difference. I see myself as a sinner going into church. Not just capable of sin, but a sinner.
We are all sinners. I'm just concerned with the churches, the individuals who single out homosexuals as "not only are they sinners but they are living a life of sin."

This is the differentiation that I've heard from a lot of church go-ers.

This is the one I find discusting.
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Old 12-06-2004, 10:07 PM   #114
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We are all sinners. I'm just concerned with the churches, the individuals who single out homosexuals as "not only are they sinners but they are living a life of sin."

This is the differentiation that I've heard from a lot of church go-ers.

This is the one I find discusting.

you know what happens to most homoseuxals who try to live their lives in denial of their orientation? whether through marriage to someone of the opposite sex, or a celibate life, the result is usually self-hate and, frankly, a life of substance abuse. i've seen first hand, and experienced myself, the role that substances play in the life of closeted gay people -- they become a crutch like you wouldn't believe. both in how they ease the pain of a life where you're told (by the church, and our government) that you're less than human, and also in how some closeted people need to be drunk or high to even begin to acknowledge their orientations.

the only mentally healthy thing to do is to come out -- perhaps we're trading one life of sin for ther other, but i'd rather a life committed to a partner (or at least searching for one) than one swimming in Jack Daniels and marijuana.
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Old 12-06-2004, 10:10 PM   #115
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#1: actually, i disagree. i don't know how you prove, or disprove, the sexual repression of priests. i'd imagine that's a subjective interpretation, and the stories i've heard of priests who endure daily torture between their vows and their desires, combined with the large amount of men who never become priests because it means having to live a life of celebacy, does appear to make it tantamount to some form of repression or oppression. i'm sure some priests are able to live happy lives of celibacy, but i imagine most struggle mightily with it.

and, yes, i do think there's a human need to "get off." you can choose to combat it, and that's fine, but please recognize that your body was designed to want to have sex, and that sex feels good so you'll do it again and again and again to ensure survival of the species. does this mean we should fuck at will? of course not. we know the negative consequences to sex, and we exercise our judgement and will power to regulate our behavior. but the fact remains that our organs work, and they want to be used -- think back to being a 14 year old boy, were you not made aware, sometimes at the worst moments possible, that your organs were working? maybe a bit too well?

like i said: let's be adults. and let's learn something from the Europeans, the Dutch and the Scandos in particular. they strike me as having a very mature view on sexuality, along with some of the lowest STD and teen pregnancy rates in the world.

Scandinavia also has one of the highest rates of absentee fatherhood...babies being raised by single moms, paid for by a generous welfare state. Drug abuse is also high, at least in Norway. The grass is always greener on the other side...

As far as the priest thing goes, I just think you're wrong and you think I'm wrong, so we're at a stalemate. All I can say is that celibacy, while difficult to maintain, is much like staying true in a marriage. Rates of infidelity are high (even in those oh-so-enlightened countries you named). I feel compelled to "get off" with many women (far less than when I was 14), but that doesn't mean my desires shouldn't be curbed. Celibacy, like marital fidelity, takes practice, and it gets easier through success over time. According to your argument (which may be right, in fact!), all married people are prey to sexual repression, because they are probably still occasionally have desires that are outside the boundaries of marriage.

The statistics I've read on priest sexual abuse claims that the numbers are no higher for their profession than any other. And, in fact, there is substantial data that older nuns and priests are among the most satisfied people around. Imagine that: no sex for life and still fulfilled!

If one dwells on their desires to "get off" too much, it's for darned sure that they're going to begin to think it's a necessity!


Listen, I have actually not made up my mind about the morality of homosexuality. I am mainly playing devil's advocate here (and perhaps that's manipulative, but I'm getting some good arguments here and there). I have actually just completed a 6-session long intensive study on homosexuality and the Church that was designed to be as even-handed as possible. It fostered good discussion in our group. I'm just convinced, however, that our society's morbid fixation on sexuality is tightly wound together with the prevalance of so-called homosexual rights. I don't think this is a chicken-or-egg argument, as you suggest. I think they are both symptoms of a culture that has become so individual driven ("whatever works for you is OK") and entitlement based that we can't really function as a real human community anymore. Thus my statements about private marriage. Marriage is not just a ceremony, as people on here maintain. It is, by definition, the public's claim or handle on what types of sexual behavior and family structure is acceptable.

I am celibate. Not a priest, but I've taken vows of celibacy within my denomination. I see in my work plenty of examples of kids extremely confused (and hurt) about their sexuality...and it is a direct result of society's focus on the perceived centrality of having sex being vital for life and identity. And these confused teens and college students are fundamentally not happy about their struggling. I think inside they are wanting someone to give them set rules and then get on to more important things in life...like serving others and making a helpful contribution to society.

I'm rambling. Going to bed.
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Old 12-07-2004, 06:51 AM   #116
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Originally posted by Moonlit_Angel


The ceremony is public, but the activities of the couple on their wedding night are not. Those are saved for the privacy of the room they decide to be in.

And besides that...so, you're telling me that you'd have no problem with me dictating what you and your significant other can do in the privacy of your own home? You're telling me that you'd be totally willing to let others watch you and your significant other express your love for each other?

If your answer to that is no, then please explain why it has to be the case with others.

Angela

You have taken my comments and run too far with them...into places I don't want to go.

Let me explain: marriage is the public's way of claiming a relationship. It is not just a ceremony. It is taking a relationship "public." That doesn't mean that you do your sex acts in view of others. It means it's public. There is a big difference. If two people tell you they're married, then there are certain things you, as a member of the public know about them: they are a legal entity; they are only having sexual relations with each other; (if it's a man and woman) they might be pregnant one day with one another's child; they have pledged to have strong feelings for each other---strong enough to try maintaining those feelings for the rest of their lives, etc. We may know these things about non-married people too, but never in the same way as married ones. That's a fact.

The activities of the couple on their married night? Come ON! We may not know exactly what positions they're trying and how many times they do the nasty, but everyone, EVERYONE knows that's what the wedding night is for. It's the consummation. They are being sexual with one another...and that's OK!! It may not be done in plain view, but it's still public. By the way, in many cultures the village expects to see bloody bedsheets the next morning. Horrifying, huh?

I would assume this all would be the same if gay marriage were to be legalized. As the couple leaves the wedding party for their honeymoon...or when they go into their bedroom together at night, people are not thinking, "Gee, I wonder if they're going in there to play chess all night long?" If they're not married, we may never really know what they're up to. It's secret. But once they decide to take it public, everyone may legitimately assume that it's not chess going on in there!
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Old 12-07-2004, 09:02 AM   #117
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PW: i have no idea what's going on in your second post. the point Angela is making, i think, is that to call homosexuality immoral is to dictate and regulate what consenting adults can and cannot do behind closed doors. she's asking, then, if you'd feel comfortable if the government tried to regulate what you, as a heterosexual, did behind closed doors. i don't agree with this statement you made: " Marriage is not just a ceremony, as people on here maintain. It is, by definition, the public's claim or handle on what types of sexual behavior and family structure is acceptable." what types of sexual behavior are going on in a married couple's bedroom? do you know? do you *want* to know? that's their business, and neither you nor the public have any right to impose your standards of sexuality -- or, by extention, what family structure is acceptable ... i'd even argue that non-traditional families are stronger because they know they need to make it work, as opposed to taking it for granted -- because that opens a massive Pandora's Box. might oral sex not be acceptable? oral sex is certainly not pro-creative. quck, someone tell Rick Santorum so he can stop all those married people from engaging in non-procreative intercourse ...

i also generally agree with your comments about our society being oversexualized. though, i would argue, it's less the amount of sex, or the existence of sex, and more the way in which sex is used: to titilate, to stimulate, and to get you to BUY BUY BUY!!! we're simlutaneously the most prurient culture since Rome, yet the most puritanical country in the Western world. it's a schizophrenic state of affairs, where a cheap, teenaged vision of sex is used to sell soft drinks, yet we're pumping millions of dollars into abstinence-only programs that pump kids full of false information while simultaneously omitting information -- such as the correct means of using contraception -- that enables people to be healthy, responsible adults. we're fine with blood and guts on our TV screens, but god forbid two adults have sex, or we see a woman's bare breast. i'd much rather have sex on my screen than violence.

*this* is what i object to and think wrecks the most harm on the psyche of adolescents, not an adult version of sexuality, which i do see in Northern European countries. absentee fatherhood is far less of a problem than, say, STDs or teenage pregnancies, and i'm glad the state has the good sense to help every child be a wanted child by assisting single mothers financially. and the drug use in Norway is utterly irrelevant to the issue at hand.

i really can't add much to your celibacy, though believe it or not, i was sort of celibate for a while. being closeted, you don't have sex with either women (because you don't want to) or men (because it would blow your cover). and it was the most unhappy i've ever been in my life because i was repressing myself on several levels. now that i'm out, dating, and occasionally having sexual relationships with other adults, my life is much calmer and stabler. i think if you find value in celibacy, and wish to pursue it as a goal, it can be a healthy thing. but viewing it as a virtue, in and of itself irregardless of the circumstances of other individual's lives, is something entirely different. this isn't an either/or argument.
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Old 12-07-2004, 11:23 AM   #118
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I'm sorry, Irvine511, that you find my second post so unclear. I'm not as articulate as I think I am sometimes.

I am taking issue with everyone's modern assumption that (1) peoples' personal/sexual behavior doesn't affect anyone else but them and (2) sexuality in marriage is, in fact, claimed by the community at large.

This is a counter-cultural claim, but I do think that your or anyone else's behavior in the bedroom does have more of an affect on other people than you think. Your relationships affect you, wholistically, whether positively or negatively. And that result is de facto shared with everyone who comes into contact with you. In spite of what we'd LIKE to believe about any type of behavior, all actions have ripple affects on more than just the people immediately involved.

Take domestic violence, for an example. If a man and woman are married and go into the "privacy" of their bedroom each night and then he then rapes her, or at least does things with her she never feels comfortable with, do you not think that their behavior will have an affect on their whole family life? What if they have children? What about how she continues to feel more and more victimized throughout the course of her day, her life, unable to express emotions healthily? And what about him? His "private" behavior leads him to taking advantage and using power inappropriately in countless other relationships. As long as this behavior goes unchecked, he will also be robbed of the potential to become a better person. You're darned tootin their "private" bedroom behavior will ripple far outside those four walls. In fact, society has already decided this is the case: hence, anti-rape laws.

Take an example at the other extreme: imagine two people who are in a near model marriage. Their sex life is amazing. They "do it" all the time, to the near or complete satisfaction of both of them. It enhances their marriage, their relationship. Likewise, this stronger, more committed relationship will flow into the relationships around them. Their children will grow up in a loving home with healthy attitudes of fidelity and marriage, which will provide them with plenty of resources for their lives. They will most likely grow up and try to replicate their parents' relationships in their own, thus continuing the cycle.

We, as a society, have a distorted view of "public" and "private." Our actions ripple far beyond what we intend and what we realize.

To this end, culture/society/our fragmented communities need to decide: can we, together, claim homosexual intercourse as something for the good of all community? This means we will have to drop--completely--any arguments that are based on "whatever is good for me, goes, and to hell with what others think." We will have to learn, collectively, how to put the good of the community before the good of the individual (or at least on the same level) because right now, all this conflict and emotivism will get us nowhere.
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Old 12-07-2004, 11:48 AM   #119
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I'm sorry, Irvine511, that you find my second post so unclear. I'm not as articulate as I think I am sometimes.

I am taking issue with everyone's modern assumption that (1) peoples' personal/sexual behavior doesn't affect anyone else but them and (2) sexuality in marriage is, in fact, claimed by the community at large.

This is a counter-cultural claim, but I do think that your or anyone else's behavior in the bedroom does have more of an affect on other people than you think. Your relationships affect you, wholistically, whether positively or negatively. And that result is de facto shared with everyone who comes into contact with you. In spite of what we'd LIKE to believe about any type of behavior, all actions have ripple affects on more than just the people immediately involved.

Take domestic violence, for an example. If a man and woman are married and go into the "privacy" of their bedroom each night and then he then rapes her, or at least does things with her she never feels comfortable with, do you not think that their behavior will have an affect on their whole family life? What if they have children? What about how she continues to feel more and more victimized throughout the course of her day, her life, unable to express emotions healthily? And what about him? His "private" behavior leads him to taking advantage and using power inappropriately in countless other relationships. As long as this behavior goes unchecked, he will also be robbed of the potential to become a better person. You're darned tootin their "private" bedroom behavior will ripple far outside those four walls. In fact, society has already decided this is the case: hence, anti-rape laws.

Take an example at the other extreme: imagine two people who are in a near model marriage. Their sex life is amazing. They "do it" all the time, to the near or complete satisfaction of both of them. It enhances their marriage, their relationship. Likewise, this stronger, more committed relationship will flow into the relationships around them. Their children will grow up in a loving home with healthy attitudes of fidelity and marriage, which will provide them with plenty of resources for their lives. They will most likely grow up and try to replicate their parents' relationships in their own, thus continuing the cycle.

We, as a society, have a distorted view of "public" and "private." Our actions ripple far beyond what we intend and what we realize.

To this end, culture/society/our fragmented communities need to decide: can we, together, claim homosexual intercourse as something for the good of all community? This means we will have to drop--completely--any arguments that are based on "whatever is good for me, goes, and to hell with what others think." We will have to learn, collectively, how to put the good of the community before the good of the individual (or at least on the same level) because right now, all this conflict and emotivism will get us nowhere.
Sorry but I don't believe a word of it. I think you may have a distorted view of private and public. First of all your first examples are of crimes committed, of course those will have affect on others hence why they are crimes. Your examples of good sex leading to good parenting, maybe, but I know of many examples of couples who aren't as hot and heavy and still have amazing family structures.

Yes every action, thought, whatever will shape and mold our lives but it doesn't mean it's public.

My prayers aren't public. My thoughts aren't public. My sex is not public.

My sex affects no one but the myself and the person I am having sex with.

Yes your relationships affect you wholistically. But why are you focusing on sex. My relationship with my father affects me, my relationship with my boss affects me. What two people do behind closed doors is their business, no one elses. PERIOD.
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Old 12-07-2004, 12:15 PM   #120
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you know what happens to most homoseuxals who try to live their lives in denial of their orientation? whether through marriage to someone of the opposite sex, or a celibate life, the result is usually self-hate and, frankly, a life of substance abuse.
There is a member of my extended family who led an actively gay life before marrying a woman in my family. They have been married for 25 years. The result? He is one of the angriest people I've ever known. He cannot have eye contact with anyone, he hates his wife which is evident in the way he screams at her and publicly demeans her all the time, and he drinks heavily. He also developed OCD (obsessive compulsive disorder) a few years into the marriage and throughout the marirage has frequently disappeared on mysterious "business trips." He told his wife from the beginning that he was terrified he would die of AIDS so he wanted to try to live a straight life. Their marriage is a lie and a mess and their daughter is already showing signs of being a complete nightmare as she enters puberty.

So there's one for the sanctity of marriage.
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