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Old 12-06-2004, 12:55 PM   #76
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


So only the ones that believe opposition to homosexuality is a human doctrine are governed more by politics? Oh that's brilliant!!! You're a piece of work.
Didn't say that at all. There's quite a few churches that are political on both sides.
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Old 12-06-2004, 12:58 PM   #77
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Can well meaning people interpret Scripture to identify homosexuality as a sin - along with all the other things that are identified as sin in the Bible? Not elevate this as any greater form of sin, just include it with all other sins.
Interesting point and one that was necessary.

I am troubled by the ad in the sense that no one is running ads saying "pornographers" welcome or "thieves welcome here".

I think the big problem in the question is the fact that there are things we as human beings choose to do. Looking at the Ten Commandments, many of them are choices.

If you lump homosexuality as a sin that someone choses as in thou shalt not kill, covet, adultery, ect,,,,,then my answer to your question is yes, you can be a well meaning person and think this.

However, if I were the homosexual, who was born the way I was, I would have a hard time dealing with my so called "sin" being lumped in as a choice.....and on the equivalent scale of the sins people chose to commit.

I am rambling now.....
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Old 12-06-2004, 01:01 PM   #78
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as sins go, this one doesn't even make the top 10.
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Old 12-06-2004, 01:01 PM   #79
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Originally posted by paxetaurora


I think this is reaching a bit. The commercial, to me, suggests that, for whatever reason, there are churches wherein homosexuals (particularly homosexual couples) are unwelcome. And I think you'd be hard-pressed to argue that this is not true. I'm trying to imagine two gay men walking hand-in-hand into, say, Jerry Falwell's church and having nothing happen.

I mean, what about the (Not So) Reverend Fred Phelps and his "church"? Are you saying gays would be welcome there?

Obviously even most churches that believe homosexual relations to be sinful would not react violently or even unkindly to most homosexuals or homosexual couples, but to say that there are no churches wherein they would be more or less kicked out is, I think, not true.
I wonder how often this really happens, but I won't deny that it could in some congregations.

I doubt the UCC would make ads based on the fringe churches that would physically exclude people because of their sin. To me, I read it in the broader sense where there are plenty of churches that don't adopt an "inclusive" doctrinal viewpoint.

My guess is that in many cases, homosexual couples attend church without the congregation even knowing (as if it is any of their business in the first place).
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Old 12-06-2004, 01:02 PM   #80
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The problem I have always, always had with calling homosexuality a sin is that as far as I can see, two consenting adults engaging in a homosexual relationship not only hurts no one, but can in fact have great benefits! I mean, murder and theft and adultery and covetousness are obviously sins that hurt other people. You should honor your parents because of the great sacrifices involved in parenthood; you should worship only God and remember the Sabbath in gratitude and respect for God, who created you and everything you have. The Ten Commandments make good sense as a moral code, and a moral code particularly for the people of God (though surely they're not a bad idea for those who don't consider themselves to be such, LOL).

But being gay? Just being gay? Just being gay with another person who feels similarly? Setting up a family and household, maybe adopting a child or two who might not otherwise have a loving home? I'm sorry, that doesn't sound so sinful to me.
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Old 12-06-2004, 01:02 PM   #81
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Originally posted by Irvine511
as sins go, this one doesn't even make the top 10.
There really isn't a ranking, except for apostacy and perhaps pride.
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Old 12-06-2004, 01:03 PM   #82
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Originally posted by nbcrusader

My guess is that in many cases, homosexual couples attend church without the congregation even knowing (as if it is any of their business in the first place).
I would agree with this. I have absolutely not a clue as to how many homosexuals attend my church and having a lesbian priest would I think tend to open itself to more attending.

Hmmm....
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Old 12-06-2004, 01:08 PM   #83
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As far as the ad, while I may disagree with the church's doctorine, I don't see how a network couldn't air it unless they were terrified of getting angry letters from conservative church goers.
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Old 12-06-2004, 01:11 PM   #84
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Worshipping an idol hurts no one.

The bottom-line with sin, whether or not it hurts another person is irrelevant. It hurts God.
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Old 12-06-2004, 01:13 PM   #85
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Originally posted by nbcrusader
Worshipping an idol hurts no one.

The bottom-line with sin, whether or not it hurts another person is irrelevant. It hurts God.
It hurts you.
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Old 12-06-2004, 01:18 PM   #86
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Originally posted by Dreadsox


It hurts you.

i was hurting myself every single day that i remained in the closet.

i feel pretty certain that the lies and deception -- and subsequent self-hate -- i used both on myself and on my friends were far greater sins than whatever i have done behind a closed door.
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Old 12-06-2004, 01:21 PM   #87
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Originally posted by Dreadsox
It hurts you.
Two things:

First, I could simply deny that I am hurting myself.

Second, it open the potential that we can define sin so that an individual does not hurt themselves (which can go just about anywhere at that point).


Sin hurts God.
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Old 12-06-2004, 01:27 PM   #88
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Believe it or not Irvine, your openness about yourself is much appreciated.
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Old 12-06-2004, 01:29 PM   #89
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Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
Believe it or not Irvine, your openness about yourself is much appreciated.

well, the anonymity of this forum makes it easy.

in real life, i'm still not totally comfortable with myself and lapse into depression and bouts of self-loathing every now and again. but i'm trying to accept myself, particularly in today's heated climate.

thanks for the words, though, appreciated.
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Old 12-06-2004, 01:30 PM   #90
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Sin surely does hurt God. But how does the reality of two adults engaged in a consenting relationship based on fidelity, respect, and love hurt God? Particularly if these individuals are committed to a family life in which they are raising children--in many cases, the children that the good straight couples do not want, children that are given up for adoption for a number of reasons, foster children, children who are biracial or have special needs...

So how does this hurt God? I would think God would be happy that someone is taking care of these kids.
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