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Old 04-21-2003, 10:31 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally posted by Headache in a Suitcase
you want justification? timothy mcveigh
The execution of Timoty McVeigh validates the execution of innocent people?
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Old 04-21-2003, 10:32 PM   #62
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An eye for an eye.

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Old 04-21-2003, 10:36 PM   #63
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when there's "special" circumstances, i.e. multiple deaths, done in a henious way, with no shred of doubt as to the verdict... i am all for the death penalty.

i can now take your argument and turn it around... what human being gets the right to decide wether a fetus should be born or not? is there anyone without imperfection who can make that decision? who gets to make that choice?

i believe people have the right to their own opions. i myself believe in the death penalty, and would be sickened if people like mcveigh, bin laden, dahmer, etc. are allowed to live after what they've done. i also am anti-abortion. i believe a child should be allowed to decide for themselves on how their life should turn out. i understand that there are people who disagree with this. i disagree with them, but they have every right to believe what they want to believe. and just because they have a different opinion, i don't accuse them, unlike some people, of being morally bankrupt...
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Old 04-21-2003, 10:38 PM   #64
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and just because they have a different opinion, i don't accuse them, unlike some people, of being morally bankrupt...
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Old 04-21-2003, 10:40 PM   #65
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I think for the most part you're arguing with people who are pro-life.
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Old 04-21-2003, 10:41 PM   #66
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I think people shouldn't get to decide whether a person lives or dies in any case: I'm PRO-LIFE and ANTI-DEATH PENALTY!

I don't think humans should get to decide whether another human lives or dies. Please, tell me how that should work in practice? How do we decide when someone should be executed? Like I said - is it if they kill someone? But then, what about if it is in self-defence, what if the murderer is mentally ill, what if they didn't mean to kill the victim?

There aren't any moral absolutes there. You can't say if a person kills another person then they deserve the death penalty because there are SO many times when that won't be the case. Who should get to decide? What human is *good* enough to decide if another person lives or dies? We're all humans, we're all imperfect, none of us is infallible, so how on earth can we give one human the power to murder another one?
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Old 04-22-2003, 01:12 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees
I think people shouldn't get to decide whether a person lives or dies in any case: I'm PRO-LIFE and ANTI-DEATH PENALTY!

I don't think humans should get to decide whether another human lives or dies. Please, tell me how that should work in practice? How do we decide when someone should be executed? Like I said - is it if they kill someone? But then, what about if it is in self-defence, what if the murderer is mentally ill, what if they didn't mean to kill the victim?

There aren't any moral absolutes there. You can't say if a person kills another person then they deserve the death penalty because there are SO many times when that won't be the case. Who should get to decide? What human is *good* enough to decide if another person lives or dies? We're all humans, we're all imperfect, none of us is infallible, so how on earth can we give one human the power to murder another one?
by the same token how can you take away the right to make a choice, whether you think it may be morally unjust or not, it is still a freedom that every human being should have...the choice to chose rather than have the choice made for you. The same argument can be made for euthenasia(sorry for the spelling)...in the case of terminally ill people who just wish to end their own suffering..is it someone elses right to say No you must continue to suffer, sorry I just dont understand the morality of that either...but I guess that is another topic altogether... being Pro-choice doesnt make you a murderer or an awful person for that matter..just makes you see that not everything is cut and dry.
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Old 04-22-2003, 01:27 PM   #68
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being Pro-choice doesnt make you a murderer or an awful person for that matter..just makes you see that not everything is cut and dry.
guaca,
I wasn't saying people who are pro-choice are murderers or awful people. And I definitely agree not everything is cut and dry - there are always shades of grey in the world, very rarely do we find black and white moral absolutes. That said, don't questions about abortion necessarily involve a cut and dry answer? Isn't it true to say a person must believe either abortion is murder or it isn't, how can there be a middle ground? I guess someone could say it is murder and yet say it is sometimes justified, but I don't see how a person could say there isn't a cut and dry answer about whether abortion involves murder or not.

I wasn't saying to be pro-choice is to be a murderer, because I believe that pro-choice should mean just that: pro-CHOICE, not pro-abortion. (It's one of the reasons I hate that so many pro-choice "pregnancy advisory services" are coincidentally run by the very same people who offer abortions!) But anyway, I really wasn't saying people who are pro-choice are murderers or awful people...I don't agree with them anymore, but that doesn't make them bad people in my eyes.
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Old 04-22-2003, 01:30 PM   #69
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Let's not make anymore personal accusations and try to stick to the issues, okay?
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Old 04-22-2003, 01:35 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally posted by diamond
I will say this..
in the event of rape or incest..
I would b ok w/an abortion in the 1st trimester.

These types of pregnanies account for less than 2% of pregnancies, studies show..

db9

OMC, I actually agree with diamond!

I also think that if you *are* going to have an abortion, for whatever reason, it should be the law that it happens in the 1st trimester. Under no circumstances, do I think abortion be used as another form of birth control. It should only be used in exceptional circumstances.

I'd still like to know what the pro life people have to say about a 9 year old being pregnant....and what they have to say about the rights of the person who has been raped as guaca raised earlier. People have been conveniently side-stepping that one.

Just as I think abortion is OK in certain extreme circumstances, I also think that of the death penalty.....but only with irrefutable dna evidence. Sometimes I think that by executing someone, we are sinking to their level (and putting them out of their misery) but then again, it annoys me to no end having my tax $ supporting some bastard rapist/murderer who gets to watch TV in jail for the rest of his life!!!
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Old 04-22-2003, 01:40 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees
Isn't it true to say a person must believe either abortion is murder or it isn't, how can there be a middle ground?
Well, I don't know if I agree with that. Because I don't think something is "murder" unless it is a fully fledged person. I think that a 1st trimeter fetus is a collection of cells, living cells yes, but certainly not a person. It's not pleasant or a nice concept, but I don't think it's murder.
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Old 04-22-2003, 01:40 PM   #72
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Mrs. Edge - there are lots of statistics showing it costs more to execute a person than it does to keep them in prison for the rest of their life, so you don't have to worry about your tax dollars supporting a murderer more than you'd worry about your tax dollars supporting an execution.

I can find some links on the subject if you want?
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Old 04-22-2003, 01:42 PM   #73
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Really? Why would that be? Sure, some links would be interesting, thanks!
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Old 04-22-2003, 01:44 PM   #74
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Quote:
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Well, I don't know if I agree with that. Because I don't think something is "murder" unless it is a fully fledged person. I think that a 1st trimeter fetus is a collection of cells, living cells yes, but certainly not a person. It's not pleasant or a nice concept, but I don't think it's murder.
That's kind of what I meant though - either abortion is murder or it's not, and you don't believe it is.

I think I explained myself badly (yet again!). What I meant was I think there are only two positions a person could have on this question, either:
a) abortion is murder (and if a pro-choice person believes this, then I assume they would say it's murder but sometimes justified.)
or b) abortion is not murder (either because a person doesn't believe a fetus is a person or doesn't believe it's viable, whatever the reason.)
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Old 04-22-2003, 01:55 PM   #75
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Here's Amnesty's page on the cost of the death penalty relative to the cost of life imprisonment: http://www.amnestyusa.org/abolish/cost.html

There's also this page from the Death Penalty Information Centre: http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/arti...did=108&scid=7

Basically the death penalty is more costly because of the hugely expensive trial and sentencing needed before a person can be executed.
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