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Old 04-21-2003, 04:27 PM   #46
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I have a real problem with some of these analagies..the whole pro-life status quo where let the innocent live I dont know gets me to thinking...

what if the case were of a youngster, say a 14 or 15 year old...was raped..and the resulting pregancy that exists afterwards...the youngster who was raped was innocent..so as a pro-lifer, you would force that child to believe that the child that will be born should be allowed to come into this world no matter what..because it isnt that childs fault so you should condemn that child to death......

well what about the child who is condemned to have that child....what about their innocence and rights...

I dont know. I just have a real problem with being so blocked in thinking that abortion is not right period, regardless of circumstance...I mean I certainly dont agree with abortion being used for example as an alternate means of birth control, but I also dont agree that choices should be taken away from people either...because when choices are taken away, people get desperate..and then what ends up happening is instead of one life(which is debateable as to whether a fetus in first trimester is considered a life)..you lose 2....the life of the fetus and the life of the woman or child who is forced to go behind closed doors for help...
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Old 04-21-2003, 04:35 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally posted by guaca
I have a real problem with some of these analagies..the whole pro-life status quo where let the innocent live I dont know gets me to thinking...

what if the case were of a youngster, say a 14 or 15 year old...was raped..and the resulting pregancy that exists afterwards...the youngster who was raped was innocent..so as a pro-lifer, you would force that child to believe that the child that will be born should be allowed to come into this world no matter what..because it isnt that childs fault so you should condemn that child to death......

well what about the child who is condemned to have that child....what about their innocence and rights...

I dont know. I just have a real problem with being so blocked in thinking that abortion is not right period, regardless of circumstance...I mean I certainly dont agree with abortion being used for example as an alternate means of birth control, but I also dont agree that choices should be taken away from people either...because when choices are taken away, people get desperate..and then what ends up happening is instead of one life(which is debateable as to whether a fetus in first trimester is considered a life)..you lose 2....the life of the fetus and the life of the woman or child who is forced to go behind closed doors for help...
I couldn't agree with you more.
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Old 04-21-2003, 05:05 PM   #48
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Me too guaca...no one has ever sufficiently explained that one. Especially now with girls going into puberty younger and younger...my niece got her period at 9 years old! Does any pro lifer honestly expect a 9 year old to have a baby? It's horrendous!!!
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Old 04-21-2003, 05:10 PM   #49
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Originally posted by melon


Those who claim to be pro-life and pro-death penalty are as morally bankrupt as it gets.

Melon
So if I am anti-abortion ....... and pro-death penalty am I morally bankrupt? Just checking?
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Old 04-21-2003, 05:21 PM   #50
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Is there evidence of whether a 1st trimester fetus can feel pain - ie would suffer in abortion?

And if you say abortion in the first trimester isn't murder, does that mean a first trimester fetus isn't actually a human being? Presumably if it was a human being, then to kill it would be murder?
Re: fetal pain.

You have to understand the difference between sensing and feelign pain. Cortical processing of pain theoretically becomes possible after development of the thalamo-cortical connections in the 26th week of gestation (Brain Dev 2000 May;22(3):145-50).

However, a critical factor in feeling pain is the arrival of thalamocortical connections. These first penetrate the frontal cortical plate at 22-34 weeks, and their arrival correlates well with evoked potential studies, which show that the distinct component signalling the arrival of sensory impulses at a cortical level cannot be detected before 29 weeks (BMJ 1996;313:797-798). This article as well as the references, if anybody is interested can be found here, and it concludes with "So can a fetus feel pain? Given the definitions of feeling and pain the answer must be no." This is the general view of the medical community at large, as you will find if you delve deeper into the subject.

As for the first trimester - I see it as a fetus, because it cannot support human life. It has no thought processes, it is not viable outside the womb, its central nervous system is undeveloped, many organs have not yet been colonized by their resident cells - ie. the thymic epithelium. That's my feeling anyway.
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Old 04-21-2003, 05:22 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mrs. Edge
Me too guaca...no one has ever sufficiently explained that one. Especially now with girls going into puberty younger and younger...my niece got her period at 9 years old! Does any pro lifer honestly expect a 9 year old to have a baby? It's horrendous!!!
I think in response the pro-life argument would be:
a) 9 year olds shouldn't be having sex.
b) Do you honestly expect a 9 year old to have an abortion?

Which of course doesn't take into account a 9 year old who got pregnant after being sexually assaulted, and assumes abortion would be more traumatic for the child than giving birth to a baby.

There actually was a whole controversy about a 9 year old girl in a country in Latin America who got pregnant and was prevented from having an abortion recently. I'll try to find an article I read about it.
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Old 04-21-2003, 07:10 PM   #52
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Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees


I think in response the pro-life argument would be:
a) 9 year olds shouldn't be having sex.
Well Good Heavens no! Of course not. I meant via sexual assault, either through molestation or rape. And yes I also saw that article about the child in Latin America...she is a baby herself (she was worrying about sharing her toys with her child!) and yet they expect her to have a baby.

I can't even imagine how a baby could fit through a child that age/size....I would think it would be far worse for her body than the abortion iteself if performed properly.
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Old 04-21-2003, 07:15 PM   #53
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Thanks for the reply, anitram. I knew almost nothing about that subject, so it's good to learn about it. Thank you!
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Old 04-21-2003, 09:53 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon

Those who claim to be pro-life and pro-death penalty are as morally bankrupt as it gets.
So I can be fair to infer that you instead believe that the killing of innocent lives who have never had a chance to live, and saving those who have been proven to be the lowest scum on the face of the earth is acceptable, just, and moral.
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Old 04-21-2003, 09:56 PM   #55
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Originally posted by Headache in a Suitcase
So I can be fair to infer that you instead believe that the killing of innocent lives who have never had a chance to live, and saving those who have been proven to be the lowest scum on the face of the earth is acceptable, just, and moral.
Open your eyes...

<-- pro-life, anti-death penalty

Why would I make a proclamation of moral bankruptcy if I were just as hypocritical as the people I'm criticizing?

Melon
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Old 04-21-2003, 10:01 PM   #56
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well i checked the mirror and yes, my eyes are open... thank you for making me go check, though... ya never can be sure if they are actually open or not

you claimed that people who are against abortion and for the death penalty, like myself, were as moraly bankrupt as they get. so i was just asking you to clear that up. if i wasn't fair to assume that, i whole heartidly appologize. i wouldn't want to offend you.
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Old 04-21-2003, 10:14 PM   #57
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Here's what I don't understand about being anti-abortion and pro-death penalty: you say abortion is wrong - it's the murder of an innocent person. But when you talk about the death penalty, you say murder is okay because that person was guilty! Leaving aside the problem of an imperfect judicial system which DOES make mistakes and execute innocent people, what makes you think any person has the right to decide who lives and who dies? How can a person, an imperfect person get to decide another person isn't worth keeping alive? Just...how can you justify that? The death penalty is murder: it's one human being killing another human being! How on earth do you justify it?
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Old 04-21-2003, 10:19 PM   #58
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you want justification? timothy mcveigh
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Old 04-21-2003, 10:20 PM   #59
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I will say this..
in the event of rape or incest..
I would b ok w/an abortion in the 1st trimester.

These types of pregnanies account for less than 2% of pregnancies, studies show..

db9
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Old 04-21-2003, 10:27 PM   #60
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So it was correct to execute McVeigh because he killed a certain number of people (I'm sorry, I don't recall how many). So is it correct to execute someone who killed one person? What about three people? What about someone who killed one person but was acting in self-defence? Do they get the death penalty?

Who gets to decide? That's my fundamental question: what human being gets to decide when it's okay to take the life of another human being?
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