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Old 04-21-2003, 12:25 PM   #31
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I can't believe that woman is even making this an issue..exploiting the murder of Laci and Connor for such purposes

The death penalty is too good for this guy, but sitting in a jail cell every day contemplating what he did is really irrelevant-does someone capable of such an act really care? Maybe he can still keep in touch w/ his mistress while he's in jail...

And I'd have to say I don't support the death penalty-but emotionally it's extremely difficult not to want it for the Scott Petersons of this world.
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Old 04-21-2003, 12:37 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon


Then you aren't pro-life at all; just anti-abortion.

Melon
Iam Pro Life
for
innocent prisoners
innocent babies.

Its just that simple, Melon.
Please dont try and type-cast me.

thank you-
diamond
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Old 04-21-2003, 01:04 PM   #33
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Diamond,
Just out of interest, why do you support the death penalty? I mean presumably you think there are some benefits of it, but what do you think they are?

Thanks,
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Old 04-21-2003, 01:17 PM   #34
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Going back to the original story, I'm against trying to connect the Peterson case to anything involving abortion. They are two separate things. One is the decision of the woman and voluntary. The other is not the decision of the woman, is not voluntary, and the act itself has little to do with whether or not the woman is pregnant. A murder of a woman is a murder of a woman.

As for the life and death debate, I am pro-choice [not pro-abortion] and anti-death penalty. A woman's decision to have an abortion is her decision alone. I don't believe in abortion but that's my belief and should be pushed on to others. But the government's death penalty decisions are way out of whack. Most of the people on death row are poor and can't afford an attorney to get them off. In most cases, their attorney isn't trained to handle death penalty cases. etc., etc., I could go on and on about the death penalty being outlawed because the system is so flawed.

So what do I think should happen to Scott? Frankly, I think he should have to sit in a cell for the rest of his life with pictures of his wife and unborn child. And let whatever happens to him happen to him. Prisoners don't take kindly to fellow convicts who hurt children in any way. They have Scott in isolation to protect him for that reason. Let's see what happens when he has to face them -- because I bet it will be worse than a government-sponsored death. I know that sounds cruel, but the guy killed his wife and child.
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Old 04-21-2003, 02:07 PM   #35
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I have always found it rather hypocritical that, on one hand, the government made abortion legal, which is tantamount in effect to saying "we declare that an unborn baby is not a human life protected by murder laws", and yet on the other hand, teh same government can charge 2 murders if a pregnant woman and her unborn baby are murdered. I think it shouldn't depend on if the woman wants the child or not. If an unborn baby is a human life, it should be protected. If not, then you can't have it both ways.
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Old 04-21-2003, 02:10 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by sharky

I don't believe in abortion but that's my belief and should not be pushed on to others.
But sharky, does that hold water? Almost all laws come from someone's moral code and belief system, including murder.

I still don't understand how someone can believe abortion is murder and yet not want it to be made illegal.
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Old 04-21-2003, 02:15 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest
I still don't understand how someone can believe abortion is murder and yet not want it to be made illegal.
What if you don't believe it's murder?

A first trimester fetus is not viable. Science supports me - never has a first trimester fetus been delivered and survived. It's actually not even close, because the youngest fetus delivered which survived was a late 2nd trimester.

Therefore, it's not murder to me to have a first trimester abortion. You can argue when life begins, but that is up to debate. It is a undebatable and undeniable fact, however, that no first trimester fetus can sustain life on its own, even with the medical advancements we have made.
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Old 04-21-2003, 02:24 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest

I still don't understand how someone can believe abortion is murder and yet not want it to be made illegal.
This is how I would have justified that to myself, although I'm not so sure I agree with this anymore.

1) I believe abortion is murder, but I acknowledge this isn't based on any scientific knowledge, it is simply my personal moral belief. Therefore I don't have a right to force my morality on to people who don't agree with it.

2) If abortion were made illegal, would women turn to 'back-street' abortions which could be extremely dangerous and even lead to their death.

3) What about situations where a woman would face horrible consequences if she didn't have an abortion? What if she might lose her home or be beaten by her partner? What if she's underage and her parents might throw her out of her home? What if she is pregnant after being raped?

Like I said, I'm not sure I do agree with those ideas anymore, but that's how I would have justified it to myself.
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Old 04-21-2003, 02:37 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally posted by anitram


What if you don't believe it's murder?
I'm talking specifically about people who say "I believe it's wrong". Is there any reason that someone would think it is wrong, if it's not because they think it's murder? I can't think of any reason abortion would be wrong if it's not murder.
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Old 04-21-2003, 02:42 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally posted by anitram
A first trimester fetus is not viable. Science supports me - never has a first trimester fetus been delivered and survived. It's actually not even close, because the youngest fetus delivered which survived was a late 2nd trimester.
Is there evidence of whether a 1st trimester fetus can feel pain - ie would suffer in abortion?

And if you say abortion in the first trimester isn't murder, does that mean a first trimester fetus isn't actually a human being? Presumably if it was a human being, then to kill it would be murder?
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Old 04-21-2003, 02:49 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees


This is how I would have justified that to myself, although I'm not so sure I agree with this anymore.

1) I believe abortion is murder, but I acknowledge this isn't based on any scientific knowledge, it is simply my personal moral belief. Therefore I don't have a right to force my morality on to people who don't agree with it.

2) If abortion were made illegal, would women turn to 'back-street' abortions which could be extremely dangerous and even lead to their death.

3) What about situations where a woman would face horrible consequences if she didn't have an abortion? What if she might lose her home or be beaten by her partner? What if she's underage and her parents might throw her out of her home? What if she is pregnant after being raped?

Like I said, I'm not sure I do agree with those ideas anymore, but that's how I would have justified it to myself.
Thanks for carifying those for me. If I were talking to someone who used those points in a discussion with me, I would answer him thusly:

1)Some scientific evidence does suggest that life begins at conception. Not only that, but this is not a case of "I can't shove my morality down people's throats". In some cases, that might be true, such as if the thing in question only hurts the person doing it. But if abortion is murder, then it is a crime that not only affects the life of the person having the abortion, but also ends the life of someone else. Oen person's rights end when it infriges on another's safety or well being.

2)The idea that "if it were made illegal, women would still do it, and do it unsafely" doesn't hold water, either. That would be like saying "Well, people are gonna do heroin anyway, so we might as well make it legal and provide safe places for them to get high." or "well, people are gonna rape others anyway, so we might as well make it legal and set up "rape zones" so that at least people can get free condoms."

3)Someone could walk up to me today, point a gun in my face and say "If you don't kill you're neighbor, I'm gonna blow your head off, or I'm gonna kick you out of the house, etc." Then, if I kill my neighbor to prevent something horrible from happening to me, I am still guilty of murder and should be prosecuted. Also, i do have compassion on women who are raped, but if I am to be consistent in my opposition to abortion based on the fact that I feel it is murder, I can't logically make any exceptions.
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Old 04-21-2003, 03:18 PM   #42
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look, the end result is that abortion is always a hot issue that will always be debated here. [btw, good debate and good points on each side]. I think we need to stick to the Peterson case. Fact is, if Laci did for some reason go in to labor the day before she disappeared, the baby would have survived most likely. As someone pointed out, a three-month old fetus would not. So put the abortion issue aside. This was a child that could have sustained life out of the womb if born early. This should be what CA bases their decision on.
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Old 04-21-2003, 03:57 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees


Is there evidence of whether a 1st trimester fetus can feel pain - ie would suffer in abortion?

Just a thought to this, I would say the medical community does believe that a 1st trimester fetus cannot feel pain. Maybe the nervous system has not developed enough.

In the US several surgical procedures are routinely performed on full term infants. The most common of these is circumcision.
They seem to think the nervous system still is not mature and the infant doesn't feel the pain in a true sense. As the mother of a boy, I couldn't disagree more. A local would be much more humane.

They also do some more invasive procedures as they feel the benefits of anesthesia do not outweigh the dangers.
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Old 04-21-2003, 04:18 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees


3) What about situations where a woman would face horrible consequences if she didn't have an abortion? What if she might lose her home or be beaten by her partner? What if she's underage and her parents might throw her out of her home? What if she is pregnant after being raped?
I agree that a woman has the choice as to what to do with her body... the woman had the choice wether to have sex or not. By making that choice, you accept the potential consequences of your actions... wether that be an STD or pregnancy. For a person to voluntarily consent to having sex come back later and say that "oh but it's my choice what to do with my body" after the fact just doesn't make sense to me. If the mother does not want the baby, does not want to take care of the baby, there are other options available. Plenty of parents out there can not have children and would love the opportunity. Even if the child is forced to go through a very rough childhood, a rough childhood is still a childhood, and that person still has a chance to make a life for themselves.
This NOW woman should be ashamed of herself. The whole "well abortion is fine because it's a choice, but murder isn't because it isn't a choice" thing just makes no sense to me.
As for the death penalty... if there is significant DNA data to backup the case, I believe the death penalty should be an option in this case. If Laci were a relative of mine, I could not live with myself knowing that the person who did this to her and Connor was allowed to continue living. Call it an eye for an eye, call it what you will.
This is a double murder, and anyone who would commit such a crime, if it is Scott Peterson or if it is someone else, deserves what is comming to them.

And let's not be too quick to convict Scott Peterson... last I checked he hasn't had a trial yet. It looks very much so like he did it by his actions, but just because he acts like an asshole doesn't make him a murderer. Let's wait for the trial before we sentance him to life in prison or the death penalty.
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Old 04-21-2003, 04:23 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally posted by sharky
look, the end result is that abortion is always a hot issue that will always be debated here. [btw, good debate and good points on each side]. I think we need to stick to the Peterson case. Fact is, if Laci did for some reason go in to labor the day before she disappeared, the baby would have survived most likely. As someone pointed out, a three-month old fetus would not. So put the abortion issue aside. This was a child that could have sustained life out of the womb if born early. This should be what CA bases their decision on.

Exactly. This is truly a good debate with great points being made but this is not about abortion...it's about a baby boy who most likely would have lived if he been born at 8 months gestation, had his mother not been murdered. Connor Peterson was also murdered and for NOW or anyone else to try to and use this issue for their own cause is just shameful.

The State of California rightfully charged Scott Peterson with 2 counts of murder IMO.
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