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Old 04-20-2003, 02:45 PM   #16
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You mean to say a person can't be pro-life with regard to both abortion AND the death penalty?

I just told you, I think abortion is wrong, I'm just not sure what I think about how the state ought to legislate for the issue. (And trust me, I've spent more time than I care to remember trying to make up my mind about this in the last few days.) I'm not pro-abortion!

And again, I think that man is disgusting. I think what he did is unspeakably evil. But what does killing him achieve? It prevents him committing another crime, yes - but so does imprisoning him for the rest of his life. It punishes him - but again, putting him in prison is a punishment. The death penalty has no deterrent effect - there is no difference in the crime rate between states which permit the death penalty and states which don't. What exactly does the death penalty achieve?
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Old 04-20-2003, 05:19 PM   #17
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Typical pro-lifers and their death penalty.

It's hypocritical, really, but religion isn't exactly known to be either rational or tolerant or consistent at any manner. Save the unborn, kill the prisoner. Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness...as long as you aren't gay--thus you should be discriminated against and spit-upon. Everyone is equal, just as long as you don't actually expect to be equal to the Christian white heterosexual male--and, if you try, you must be expecting "special rights."

But, overall, if you're expecting some logical pattern to the conservative way of thinking--don't waste your time. It's irrational and selective.

(Brought to you by someone who is pro-life, anti-death penalty, and a supporter of the still-alive Equal Rights Amendment)

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Old 04-20-2003, 11:42 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees
Diamond,

I think that raises the question of who gets to declare a person "guilty" or "innocent" - who decides for what crimes the death penalty ought to be an option? What happens when an innocent person is executed, which we all know has happened, and will continue to happen as long as the death penalty is used? Then it is the killing of a person who is innocent of the crime they were killed for.
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I can't believe it - twice in just a few days. I agree again, Fizzing!

i am pro-life and anti-death penalty.

One innocent person executed makes the death penalty wrong in these days, I think. Some people may say it's worth it, if many more guilty people are done away with. But I don't think it's true, and I think if they were the ones that had family members wrongly executed, they'd feel differently.

There's way too much chance these days for innocent people to be wrongly convicted. They may go to jail, but as long as tehy're alive, there is a chance their innocence will be proven, and tehy will be set free.
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Old 04-20-2003, 11:45 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ormus
Typical pro-lifers and their death penalty.

It's hypocritical, really, but religion isn't exactly known to be either rational or tolerant or consistent at any manner. Save the unborn, kill the prisoner. Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness...as long as you aren't gay--thus you should be discriminated against and spit-upon. Everyone is equal, just as long as you don't actually expect to be equal to the Christian white heterosexual male--and, if you try, you must be expecting "special rights."

But, overall, if you're expecting some logical pattern to the conservative way of thinking--don't waste your time. It's irrational and selective.

(Brought to you by someone who is pro-life, anti-death penalty, and a supporter of the still-alive Equal Rights Amendment)

Ormus
Shame on you, Ormus. Do you know everyone's minds and hearts, so that you can make such generalizing, sweeping statements like that? I should say not.

You are the one being close-minded.
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Old 04-21-2003, 12:09 AM   #20
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


Shame on you, Ormus. Do you know everyone's minds and hearts, so that you can make such generalizing, sweeping statements like that? I should say not.

You are the one being close-minded.
"Sweeping generalizations" is what life is all about. "Sweeping generalizations" is what gets innocent people convicted. "Sweeping generalizations" is what makes homosexuals dangerous to children.

"Sweeping generalizations" is what makes this demented pseudo-moral husk of a world go 'round, and how dare I turn the other cheek? After all, Jesus came with a sword, not peace, as I am told selectively.

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Old 04-21-2003, 12:59 AM   #21
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Your sweeping generalizations are what told you that all conservatives are pro death penalty and hate gays. That's not true at all. How would you like it if I said that all liberals are people who just want to punish the rich man and believe in killing unborn babies? I can't say that, because I know for a fact several people who classify themselves as liberals (many here at the U2 forum!) who are pro-life and don't fit other stereotypes of liberals.

And yes, I believe that war is justified in some cases. Does that make me less compassionate than you somehow, or less intelligent?

Why are you so angry about this? Don't tell me you're not; your anger toward conservatives makes itself clear in bright as day technicolor.
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Old 04-21-2003, 07:06 AM   #22
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Melon this really isn't anything to do with mass generalizations about homosexuals or conservatives or whatever. By your logic, it would be acceptable for people to make whatever assumption they want about you, which defeats the purpose of what you just said.

Anyhoo, Diamond and Fizzy, thanks for what you've both said so far. You both made really excellent points.
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Old 04-21-2003, 10:58 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


I can't believe it - twice in just a few days. I agree again, Fizzing!

i am pro-life and anti-death penalty.

We have to stop agreeing like this, 80s.

I'm starting to feel like I'm not really a liberal anymore!
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Old 04-21-2003, 11:09 AM   #24
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Melon this really isn't anything to do with mass generalizations about homosexuals or conservatives or whatever. By your logic, it would be acceptable for people to make whatever assumption they want about you, which defeats the purpose of what you just said.
I try very hard to challenge existing schools of thought. I think that there are glaring logical errors all around.

Is it acceptable that people make assumptions about me? No. But does that stop them from being made? Equally no. I still stand by the statement that "sweeping generalizations" make the world go 'round, if only because it takes too much effort for us to study all the nuances of the many cultures and subordinate hegemonies.

And, yes, I did go off-path, but how tired I am of right-wing Protestant Christianity being somehow paraded as "true Christianity," no matter how sweepingly generally hypocritical it is. Those who claim to be pro-life and pro-death penalty are as morally bankrupt as it gets.

I'm not just angry at conservatives. I'm angry at ideology all around. Putting people and ideas in convenient little boxes, and any challenge to those boxes are, more often than not, dismissed merely because it is outside of the box.

I'm glad to see that 80sU2isBest is consistent.

Melon
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Old 04-21-2003, 11:26 AM   #25
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iam pro life for the innocent.
i try to be consistntly unpredictable

thank u
db3
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Old 04-21-2003, 11:31 AM   #26
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I'm not just angry at conservatives. I'm angry at ideology all around. Putting people and ideas in convenient little boxes, and any challenge to those boxes are, more often than not, dismissed merely because it is outside of the box.
I agree with you, many people seem to assume that if a person has a "liberal" opinion on one issue then they must automatically agree with liberals on all issues. It's like there's a package of political opinions and you have to subscribe to all of them or none of them.

Discussions about abortion make this really obvious for me: I can't believe how angry my "liberal" friends get if I say I'm pro-life. It's as though there are entry qualifications for the liberal club and one of them is to believe abortion should be 100% freely available up until the moment a child is born. If you don't believe that then no matter what you think on other issues, you're always suspicious because you're not really a liberal.

The other one is religion: for some reason, apparently it's incompatible be a "liberal" and believe in religion of any kind. Unless you're willing to condemn all religions as 'nonsense' and those who believe in them as 'stupid' then you're not really a liberal.

I hate those stupid labels: you're either on the "left" or the "right" - you can't possibly mix in ideas from all across the political spectrum. You just have to pick a side and then agree unquestioningly with everything they believe in.

Sorry for taking this post over with yet another of my meaningless rants, it's just something that makes me angry.
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Old 04-21-2003, 11:35 AM   #27
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Originally posted by diamond
iam pro life for the innocent.
Then you aren't pro-life at all; just anti-abortion.

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Old 04-21-2003, 11:44 AM   #28
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Huh? Melon is Ormus?
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Old 04-21-2003, 11:49 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees
You mean to say a person can't be pro-life with regard to both abortion AND the death penalty?

I just told you, I think abortion is wrong, I'm just not sure what I think about how the state ought to legislate for the issue. (And trust me, I've spent more time than I care to remember trying to make up my mind about this in the last few days.) I'm not pro-abortion!

And again, I think that man is disgusting. I think what he did is unspeakably evil. But what does killing him achieve? It prevents him committing another crime, yes - but so does imprisoning him for the rest of his life. It punishes him - but again, putting him in prison is a punishment. The death penalty has no deterrent effect - there is no difference in the crime rate between states which permit the death penalty and states which don't. What exactly does the death penalty achieve?
to all of this.

I do think, however, that prision sentences should be tougher for violent crimes. I have serious issues with the fact that someone who rapes a child can be out of jail in five years.
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Old 04-21-2003, 11:49 AM   #30
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest
Huh? Melon is Ormus?
I keep on forgetting that people forget that I am Ormus. Maybe it is because I bring him out so infrequently...

I was using another name, b/c I was waiting to write a brilliant post #3000 in "It's Official." Now I am back to melon for a long while; probably until #3999, when I'll want to write a brilliant post #4000.

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