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Old 07-23-2003, 04:36 PM   #16
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I don't think Jesus would be voting for either side if he was here today. But I'm constantly being bombarded with the conservative, right wing, republican side saying their side is that of Gods way. Honestly I don't believe there is any room for the teachings of the New Testament in the policies of the conservative church or political parties. I think that stupid story of the grasshoper and ant is an excellent example. It's a simplified story but unfortunately that's how most of the conservatives feel about the poor or down troddened.

I'm sorry but you'll never be able to convince me that Jesus would be a Southern Baptist or support someone like Bush.
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Old 07-23-2003, 04:57 PM   #17
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar

I'm sorry but you'll never be able to convince me that Jesus would be a Southern Baptist or support someone like Bush.
I am not a Southern Baptist but I know there are members of this forum who are. Would you make the same statement if you felt this way about Catholics, Protestants, ect if you disagreed with their beliefs?

I just feel this crosses the line a little.
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Old 07-23-2003, 05:08 PM   #18
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I think BonoVoxSupastar is probably on to something. Being an omnipotent, omniscient being (surely something that someone on either side of this hypothetical fence can agree with), God sees and knows all sides of a given issue. This is something that almost no politician, liberal or conservative, can deal with. Even if a politician can see both sides of an issue, he or she is either forced to embrace one side completely so as not to appear wishy-washy--or simply appear wishy-washy. Politicians typically do not care to appear as nuanced, intellectual personalities--Al Gore is an excellent example, or Adlai Stevenson to go back a little further.

My point, I think, is that I don't believe God "takes sides" as many people would have us believe that God does. God is compassionate towards both the unborn and toward the mothers of the unborn equally. God understands the suffering of the families of murder victims and the suffering of murderers. I think that trying to take a God who can do all things, knows all things, and loves everyone and trying to fit this God into human political molds is a mistake at best and a sin at worst.

People or politicians trying to convince others that God is "on their side" have a lot of nerve telling the universe's supreme being and moral arbiter which side He or She is on. We'll all find out eventually what side God is on, for sure, but in the meantime I would rather see politicians and leaders make their decisions based on facts, rather than feelings. That goes for liberals AND conservatives. I'm tired of unsupported generalizations, like that ant and the grasshopper story. Issues like drugs, poverty, abortion, the death penalty, et al. have many, many faces. Certainly the laws have to come down on one side or another, but I think we ought not drag God into it as much as we do.
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Old 07-23-2003, 05:15 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox


I am not a Southern Baptist but I know there are members of this forum who are. Would you make the same statement if you felt this way about Catholics, Protestants, ect if you disagreed with their beliefs?

I just feel this crosses the line a little.
Ok yeah you're right. I apologize to anyone I offended. I actually thought about that and wasn't sure how to word that.

But to answer you're question, and I'll probably take some heat for this; I honestly don't believe Christ would claim any denomination. Christ rebeled against a lot of what religion stood for those days and I think he'd feel the same today. I'm not sure he'd set foot in any church today. I think he'd take it to the streets like he did then.
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Old 07-23-2003, 05:18 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by paxetaurora
I think BonoVoxSupastar is probably on to something. Being an omnipotent, omniscient being (surely something that someone on either side of this hypothetical fence can agree with), God sees and knows all sides of a given issue. This is something that almost no politician, liberal or conservative, can deal with. Even if a politician can see both sides of an issue, he or she is either forced to embrace one side completely so as not to appear wishy-washy--or simply appear wishy-washy. Politicians typically do not care to appear as nuanced, intellectual personalities--Al Gore is an excellent example, or Adlai Stevenson to go back a little further.

My point, I think, is that I don't believe God "takes sides" as many people would have us believe that God does. God is compassionate towards both the unborn and toward the mothers of the unborn equally. God understands the suffering of the families of murder victims and the suffering of murderers. I think that trying to take a God who can do all things, knows all things, and loves everyone and trying to fit this God into human political molds is a mistake at best and a sin at worst.

People or politicians trying to convince others that God is "on their side" have a lot of nerve telling the universe's supreme being and moral arbiter which side He or She is on. We'll all find out eventually what side God is on, for sure, but in the meantime I would rather see politicians and leaders make their decisions based on facts, rather than feelings. That goes for liberals AND conservatives. I'm tired of unsupported generalizations, like that ant and the grasshopper story. Issues like drugs, poverty, abortion, the death penalty, et al. have many, many faces. Certainly the laws have to come down on one side or another, but I think we ought not drag God into it as much as we do.
AMEN, couldn't have said it better myself.
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Old 07-23-2003, 05:25 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Ok yeah you're right. I apologize to anyone I offended. I actually thought about that and wasn't sure how to word that.

But to answer you're question, and I'll probably take some heat for this; I honestly don't believe Christ would claim any denomination. Christ rebeled against a lot of what religion stood for those days and I think he'd feel the same today. I'm not sure he'd set foot in any church today. I think he'd take it to the streets like he did then.
I won't give you any heat for that because if he were to choose, he would choose to be Jewish

And I think Pax's post was very good as well too.


I do however think that the events that happen in this world have to be part of the divine plan for the world. Does this mean that God is more present than we give credit for? I do not know the answer to that, but I do not believe that God is not involved in this world, calling it taking it sides, makes things a little more black and white than I believe God is. As Pax said, God feels as much for the mother as for the unborn baby. Not very black and white at all if you ask me.

Peace
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Old 07-23-2003, 05:56 PM   #22
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pFitz80;

On behalf of the FYM mods and myself, I would like to welcome you to FYM. Thanks for such an interesting thread!

Good discussion thus far, lets not get side-tracked.

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Old 07-23-2003, 06:00 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
I'm not sure he'd set foot in any church today. I think he'd take it to the streets like he did then.
Jesus would absolutely set foot in any church today. After all, he preferred to hang out with sinners. Our pastor calls our congregation the local meeting of 'sinners anonymous'.
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Old 07-23-2003, 06:04 PM   #24
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Jesus would absolutely set foot in any church today. After all, he preferred to hang out with sinners. Our pastor calls our congregation the local meeting of 'sinners anonymous'.
Absolutely. But what I meant is he wouldn't be walking in to just sit in the congregation and worship, he'd be walking in to stir things up and get people to wake up. He wouldn't be walking in to sign up as a member...
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Old 07-23-2003, 06:05 PM   #25
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God doesn't take sides. But we certainly have the resonsibility to choose His side.
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Old 07-23-2003, 06:15 PM   #26
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest
God doesn't take sides. But we certainly have the resonsibility to choose His side.

Exactly
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Old 07-23-2003, 06:17 PM   #27
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest
God doesn't take sides. But we certainly have the resonsibility to choose His side.
The danger in this, is that once one claims they are on HIS side.


They can accuse any one who disagrees with them as being against God.
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Old 07-23-2003, 07:08 PM   #28
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Pax, that was a wonderful and well-written response.

Quote:
Originally posted by deep


The danger in this, is that once one claims they are on HIS side.


They can accuse any one who disagrees with them as being against God.
deep,

I hope there are some people of faith that you know who do not do this. (In fact I'm willing to bet you know people who do not do this- but haven't had the chance to discuss faith/religion with them so you wouldn't know.)

As a Christian I can say that I've never accused anyone of being against God. I've never even come close to thinking that someone who doesn't know God is against God. I have a feeling that your statement comes from a few incidents and some small-minded people. I think people are curious, or suspicious, or want to learn but are afraid to learn about God. (I think these feelings are valid & good & exploration will help the person find answers.) But those feelings do not mean a person is against God.

I think someone else can respond more eloquently than I. So I'll reiterate I know people who are curious about but haven't let God in, and I'd never say they are against Him.
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Old 07-23-2003, 07:33 PM   #29
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Originally posted by oliveu2cm
Pax, that was a wonderful and well-written response.



deep,

I hope there are some people of faith that you know who do not do this. (In fact I'm willing to bet you know people who do not do this- but haven't had the chance to discuss faith/religion with them so you wouldn't know.)

Of course I know many religious people who do not do this.

But, when you are in a discussion about poplitics and you claim you are on his side
those who do not agree are not on his side.

I think it is wrong to drag God into an argument about politics, on the right or the left.
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Old 07-23-2003, 08:14 PM   #30
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest
Have you ever known a real Christian, Melon, or just people who call themselves that and go to church on Sundays, while living like the devil the rest of the week?
I would have to say that most of the Christians I know these days feel like they have been thrown out of mainstream religion. Considering that Jesus was thrown out of the "mainstream religion" of His day, Judaism, I don't particularly find this to be negative.

Quote:
A real Christian has the Holy Spirit living in him/her, and the HS is indeed his/her new nature. A Christian wants to do what's right. THere's plenty of us out there. We do not "make excuses as to absolve themselves from adherence to them, while forcing them upon "undesirable" groups". And if you think we ignore our own divorce rate, me thinks you need to take a walk down the "Christian Living" section at your local Christian book store and see all the books on how to avoid divorce and build strong lasting marriages.

It's odd that for someone who rants and rails about conservative Christianity, you really know so little about us.
Oh really? Where are the mass protests to ban divorce? Where are the "good Christians" heckling outside of courtrooms or trying to pass an actual "Defense of Marriage Act" banning divorce, rather than just homophobia in disguise? I would say that I probably know conservative Christianity better than thou.

Quote:
You have built your hatred for conservative Christianity on the fact that we believe homosexuality is wrong. You know darn well that most Christians don't insult or belittle homosexuals, but it doesn't matter to you. You are simply offended that we actually step out and make distinctions between what we consider right and wrong.

That, then, is Christianity's crime; in a world of relativism gone wild, Christians actually think that some things are wrong.

This is a great foundation for the coming new world order.
Well, and lookie what happens when I step outside of my "moral relativism" and condemn conservative Christianity to being antithetical to what Christianity should be? The world starts collapsing around you, metaphorically. Why else would you have brought up the "New World Order"--which is really more of a concept within futurist conservatism, not liberalism.

I merely am pointing out the hypocrisy. I am not stepping outside of Christianity; no, I am unabashedly stooping to the same level that conservative Christianity has done to the rest of Christianity. It is certainly no accident that the Christian Coalition and similar groups try to take a monopoly on the definition of Christianity, while liberal Christianity has spinelessly tolerated it for too long. I'm tired of being somehow made to believe that I am "anti-Christian" or that my love is somehow "immoral," and I certainly don't have to shut up and take it.

No more. If I wish to emulate Jesus, it is about time I start taking a stand, even if it will metaphorically crucify me in the process. It is time that liberal Christians reclaim their rightful place within morality.

Melon
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