My Mainstream Muslim Concern..

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diamond

ONE love, blood, life
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How come the peaceful- mainstream Muslims have not been more vocal, more forecful in denouncing fanatical Muslims?
I have a problem w this.

The peaceful Muslims outnumber the fanatics AT LEAST 10 to 1. Could be 20 to 1.
For every 10 peaceful, rational Muslim there is 1 crack pot terrorist Muslim.
How come freedom peaceful Muslims have not united to snuff out the terrorists?

I dont get it.

In our country we snuff out religous and fanatical terrorist-whackos.. regardless of religous afflilation..:yes:

So whats up here.?

Its time rational ppl take action against irrational ppl to prevent future bloodshed..

diamond
:dance:
 
diamond said:


In our country we snuff out religous and fanatical terrorist-whackos.. regardless of religous afflilation..:yes:


We DO?? Diamond, other than Waco, I can't even think of an instance where the U.S. government has "snuffed out" a fanatical terrorist wacko.

Here in the States, until a fanatic actually commits a crime, they are left free to spout off in any way they please. Free speech, and all that sort of rot. ;) Whaddya gonna do? Jail people 'cause they proffer questionable ideals and ideas in public??

I think it's a hard call. In an authoritarian government, sure, you can nail people for their questionable speech, but the real terrorists are gonna be hard to find -- if they're smart.
 
I think Diamond has a point. He is not just talking about the USA, he is talking about Muslims worldwide. Bin Ladin is probably hiding in Pakistan, perhaps with the aid of non-fanitical muslims.
 
Re: Re: My Mainstream Muslim Concern..

pub crawler said:



We DO?? Diamond, other than Waco, I can't even think of an instance where the U.S. government has "snuffed out" a fanatical terrorist wacko.

Here in the States, until a fanatic actually commits a crime, they are left free to spout off in any way they please. Free speech, and all that sort of rot. ;) Whaddya gonna do? Jail people 'cause they proffer questionable ideals and ideas in public??

I think it's a hard call. In an authoritarian government, sure, you can nail people for their questionable speech, but the real terrorists are gonna be hard to find -- if they're smart.

Im talking of how we more or less know where Al Queda is hiding and no one close to them is saying -'Yo here are the bastards, right here, come grab em".


Diamond
 
right, and the kkk is abolished completely.

nazi's, ya, only millions of people agreed with their philosophy at one time.

diamond, though you raise a valid question, the same question could definately be placed on christianity, dont you think?
 
diamond said:
How come the peaceful- mainstream Muslims have not been more vocal, more forecful in denouncing fanatical Muslims?

Maybe it's because don't feel they have anything more to prove than you or I.
 
Zoomerang96 said:

diamond, though you raise a valid question, the same question could definately be placed on christianity, dont you think?

I think there was a thread on this very idea a few months back when Mr. Falwell made some rediculous comments on 60 Minutes.

Radicals/Extremists no matter what religion or political persuasion seem to get the press while the moderates get left behind. It is unfortunate, because the rest of the moderates are left with the stigma of being associated with the extremes.

Peace
 
well thats right dreadsox, and the bottom line is who do you think the media is going to focus on? someone who has nothing exciting to say or someone who is very vocal and extreme in their views?
 
Zoomerang96 said:
well thats right dreadsox, and the bottom line is who do you think the media is going to focus on? someone who has nothing exciting to say or someone who is very vocal and extreme in their views?

Isn't that the way most talk radio shows are????? It's what makes Springer a success too!!!!!!

Moderates are boring and do not sell.

Peace
 
Zoomerang96 said:
right, and the kkk is abolished completely.

nazi's, ya, only millions of people agreed with their philosophy at one time.

diamond, though you raise a valid question, the same question could definately be placed on christianity, dont you think?
no, not current day Christianity..
which is my point.
In this day and age if a Christain lunatic kills innocent ppl , in the general population here, we say "come get this lunatic", our citizens do not try and harbor them/him.

In the USA , if the KKK does something stupid or violent we are very quick to jail and proscecute the bastards and rightfully so..

I see a lack of urgency in the moderate Muslim world..to do the same w their whackos...

This is what is unsettling and aggravating..:mad:

thats all.
thank u-

diamond
:dance:
 
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Well, to phrase this simply, I don't think its as easy as all that, its not as black and white. I think the parties concerned are divided into two groups, those who feel they dont have anything to prove, and the other, those who feel that there are more questions to be asked, as in; who's the lesser evil, Pro-Zionist America or Osama Bin Laden?

There are people, moderate islamic people in all areas accross the world, who have an image of Osama Bin Laden on their mobile phone screens, these are the ones who do not think the same way Bush's 'with us or against us' mentality. And, I am sorry to say, a very large proportion of such people make up the Islamic population. What these implications consist of, is another question altogether.

Ultimately, what does it matter if they renounce them? Saudi is doing a great job at renouncing terrorists, but I wouldn't politically put my head into their lion's mouth.

Ant.
 
diamond said:
no, not current day Christianity..
which is my point.
In this day and age if a Christain lunatic kills innocent ppl , in the general population here, we say "come get this lunatic", our citizens do not try and harbor them/him.

Also, to the extent that there is a militant violent extreme to Christianity, mainstream Christians regularly denounce such activities, primarily from the pulpit.

After 9/11, mainstream Muslim groups denounced the terrorist attacks. Diamond, are you referring to the regular silence after other terrorist attacks?
 
Well if you are talking about American Muslims I think they have done a fine job. Right after the attacks they seemed to be denouncing everything. Now if you are talking about Muslims in the MidEast then i wouldnt think of you to be the expert in the field. I think what ZOO saif about Christian and more specifically Catholics. After all the rapes in the church i certainly dont thikn the outrage has been what it should be. Look the priests that commited these crimes and the people that oversay them are still around not locked up in jail.

To attack the moderate Muslim for not jumping around denounceing 9/11 is an invalid attack. We dont live there we certainly dont know of the conversations between the people of the countries.
 
nbcrusader said:


Diamond, are you referring to the regular silence after other terrorist attacks?

Yes.

The almost silent complicity.

Im referring to the inaction of peaceful Muslims living abroad knowing where terrorist Muslims are currently hiding and not exposing them and offering them up.

American Muslims here and peaceful Muslims living abroad that denounce terrorism I applaud.

Diamond
 
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Well think about it


when James kopp shot Dr. Slepian


Christian leaders openly said that that sort of violence is not acceptable and not condoned.


Now....all I hear from palestinian leadership is that "well suicide bombings are bad BUT......"



There is an overwhelmingly silent majority of islamic leaders around the world that are not stressing non violence as a means of protest.


How many non violent protests against israeli occupation do you see in the middle east?

Also you have the Saudi royal family...and ally of the US is funding terror on one end and denouncing it on the other...that's the strongest condemnation of violence in the middle east.

Where is the moderate press??? where are the moderate leaders? where is this commitment to peace ?


arafat had the best deal anyone could ask for on the table and turned it down. And then..turns around and tries to import arms from iran. Is that the most moderate leadership out there?

I'm not saying it's not their...but salman rushdie himself said that the moderate muslim population has to be more vocal. And I wholeheartedly agree.


American muslims are people I have a lot of symapthy and respect for they have had to put with and defend their faitha lot after 9/11 a position I don't particularly envy.
 
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Arun V said:
Well think about it


when James kopp shot Dr. Slepian


Christian leaders openly said that that sort of violence is not acceptable and not condoned.


Now....all I hear from palestinian leadership is that "well suicide bombings are bad BUT......"



There is an overwhelmingly silent majority of islamic leaders around the world that are not stressing non violence as a means of protest.


How many non violent protests against israeli occupation do you see in the middle east?




arafat had the best deal anyone could ask for on the table and turned it down. And then..turns around and tries to import arms from iran. Is that the most moderate leadership out there?

I'm not saying it's not their...but salman rushdie himself said that the moderate muslim population has to be more vocal. And I wholeheartedly agree.


American muslims are people I have a lot of symapthy and respect for they have had to put with and defend their faitha lot after 9/11 a position I don't particularly envy.

yes
Arun this is part of my aggravation.:|



I did have a conversation w a person a bit more knowledgeable than I.
He said although most of the Muslim world is not openly violent the Shite Muslim which is about 20 percent is the most violent and feared by the majority.

I do not know if this is accurate or not.

I do not think a reg Muslim..a "Joe Muslim" wants to kill ppl of any religion.
Even though there was violence in their pasts and orgins of current day mainstream-

-Muslims
-Catholics
-Mormons
-Protestants

mainstream members of these faiths are not violent ppl.

Its high time the minstreamers stamp out the fringe lunatics of all faiths who choose to kill.

Out-
DB9
 
diamond said:
I do not think a reg Muslim..a "Joe Muslim" wants to kill ppl of any religion.

Actually, I think the proper translation would be "Yusef Islam." That is the name Cat Stevens took when he converted to Islam, and it would translate to Joseph "Joe" Muslim. He did, however, accept the Ayatollah Khomeini's fatwa against Salman Rushdie, causing Natalie Merchant and 10,000 Maniacs to pull the Cat Stevens song "Peace Train" from all futute pressings of hte IN MY TRIBE CD.

~U2Alabama
 
leapin' and hoppin' on a moonshadow moonshadow moonshadow

U2Bama said:


Actually, I think the proper translation would be "Yusef Islam." That is the name Cat Stevens took when he converted to Islam, and it would translate to Joseph "Joe" Muslim. He did, however, accept the Ayatollah Khomeini's fatwa against Salman Rushdie, causing Natalie Merchant and 10,000 Maniacs to pull the Cat Stevens song "Peace Train" from all futute pressings of hte IN MY TRIBE CD.

~U2Alabama

Yusuf Islam Issues A Formal Statement On The Rushdie Affair
By Yusuf Islam
March 2nd, 1989

Under Islamic Law, the ruling regarding blasphemy is quite clear; the person found guilty of it must be put to death. Only under certain circumstances can repentance be accepted.
On 21st February, I was speaking to a group of students at the Kingston Polytechnic, and in response to a question, I simply stated the Islamic ruling on the Rushdie affair. Suddenly. my picture was splashed on the front page of newspapers all over the world next to the headline: 'Kill Rushdie says Cat Stevens (Bio)'. It is very sad to see such irresponsibility from the 'free press' and I am totally abhorred.

My only crime was, I suppose, in being honest. I stood up and expressed my belief and I am in no way apologizing for it. I expressed the Islamic view based on the Qur'an, the Prophet's sayings (peace and blessings be upon him) and the rulings of the Caliphs and renowned schools of Islamic jurisprudence.

However, that is not to say I am encouraging people to break the law or take it into their own hands: far from it. Under the Islamic Law, Muslims are bound to keep within the limits of the law of the country in which they live, providing that it does not restrict the freedom to worship and serve God and fulfil their basic religious duties (fard'ayn). One must not forget the ruling in Islam is also very clear about adultery, stealing and murder, but that doesn't mean that British Muslims will go about lynching and stoning adulterers, theives and murderers. If we can't get satisfaction within the present limits of the law, like a ban on this blasphemous book, 'Satanic Verses' which insults God and His prophets - including those prophets honoured by Christians, Jews as well as Muslims - this does not mean that we should step outside of the law to find redress. No. If Mrs. Thatcher and her Government are unwilling to listen to our pleas, if our demonstrations and peaceful lobbying don't work, then perhaps the only alternative is for Muslims to get more involved in the political process of this country. It seems to be the only way left for us.

The fundimental issue which has put the non-Muslim world at loggerheads with Islam, is not that of the book or attempts to ban it. Indeed it is encouraging that many non-Muslims, including the Archbishop of Canterbury endore the request of Muslims that the Blasphemy Law be extended to cover the Islamic faith. When Jim Allen's play 'Perdition' was harassed out of existance by angry jews - some of whom burned an effigy of the writer - the British reaction was muted. The present attitude of the Government and press is obviously as a result of their opposition to the Islamic legal ruling that Rushdie should be executed and the fact that it has come from an Islamic country.

The fact is that as far as the application of Islamic Law and the implementation of full Islamic way of life in Britain is concerned, Muslims realize that there is very little chance of that happening in the near future. But that shouldn't stop us from trying to improve the situation and presenting the Islamic viewpoint wherever and whenever possible. That is the duty of ever Muslim and that is what I did.
 
If there was ever an argument for complete separation of church and state...

:|

Melon
 
melon said:
If there was ever an argument for complete separation of church and state...

Well, maybe an argument against theocracies. Sometime the idea of separation of church and state is used to stifle a church.

:| :|
 
nbcrusader said:
Well, maybe an argument against theocracies. Sometime the idea of separation of church and state is used to stifle a church.

Yeah...it's used to prevent a church from forcing its beliefs on everyone. But you know what? It's necessary, because the last thing we need is religion and all of its irrational tendencies to start dictating "law." Mosaic Law, for instance, isn't exactly the pinnacle of "justice"; just an excuse for a bloodbath in the name of God.

And I've made a decision: if I ever become part of a school that starts mandating school prayer someday, I'll make sure to pray the "Hail Mary" every morning openly, and start asking for saints to pray for everyone and the conversion of Protestantism from its heretical ways.

Melon
 
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melon said:
And I've made a decision: if I ever become part of a school that starts mandating school prayer someday, I'll make sure to pray the "Hail Mary" every morning openly, and start asking for saints to pray for everyone and the conversion of Protestantism from its heretical ways.

Well, in your intelligent, humorous way you've highlighted the real reason why we should not have mandatory prayer in school.

I'd have to spend every evening explining to my son why we don't pray to earth spirits or St. Hubbins.
 
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