My God. Now we ARE living in a police state. (Literally).

[Teta040]

A few weeks ago I posted a thread (which didn't get alot of responses BTW) in which I related that our biggest local mall, Crossgates, in Albany, NY, was starting a strict new curfew policy in which people age 18 and under would be banned from the mall on weekends without an adult. I thought at the time that this was, in addition to being a dangerous infreingment on young people's rights (they can't vote , so who cares a frig about what they may have to say?) an insult of the highest proportions. Like, I can drive a car and in another year, I can vote. And I'm a freshman in college too. But I can't go to the mall on the weekend alone? Who the do people think they are, passing judgements on who is mature enough to handle a shopping trip, and who isn't? If they've been having problems with teens in malls (but thisis the weird part--I live across the st from this mall and pass thorugh it in and out alot on the way home to and from work, etc) there have been no major incidents with kids lately. The biggest incident, in fact, came 2 yrs ago when a man was arrested for wearing a (supposed) anti-war in Iraq shirt which he had BOUGHT IN THE MALL. You might recall this made national headlines. Funny, they didn;t mind selling it and making money, or displaying itin a shop windowm but wearing it was different. Likewise, teens aren;t banned from driving, b/c they do to other businesses and resturaunts....

I knew they were serious aobut the law, but today, I went into the mall and there, at every entrance, they actually have 2 uniformed security guards standing behind tables scurtinizing each and every person who walks into this mall. They mean business. (I noticed the crowds were much thinner too.)

I hope the mall loses alot of money b/c of this absurd law. Teens shopping alone bring in a lot of money. What if you work n the mall? And don't waer a uniform? I wonder if employees have special rules.

If thisismeant to warn parents aobut the dangersof leaving teens alone, WTF? Exploring your world, free and independant of adults, is a vital part of forming character. It;s raining outside right now. Where can these teens go? Sit and pig out in a rsturaunt. Vegetate on the Net. Or shop in strip mall. If the movies out this week all suck,, what then? Parents should be strict, but teens are not 10 yr olds. They are mature, responsiible people, for the most part. I certainly was! It;s bad enough we keep out younger kids in virtual house imprisonment. Must teen now be taught to live in fear as well?

 

[VertigoGal]

wow, that's really odd. we don't have anything like that around here. Is it the mall's right to make rules like that? it just doesn't seem right.

I go to the mall alone all the time, we never cause any trouble (well, except for the time we got thrown out of the sex store cos my 2 guy friends got in a light sabor fight with some objects I won't name...and the time we got kicked out of brookstone cos my friend fell asleep in the massage chair... good times)

seriously though, this is incredibly stupid.

 

[neutral]

Is it on weekend nights or the whole weekend?

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

That is stupid. Don't punish all teens for the actions of a few idiots.

Besides that, you know, toward the end of every year, around the holidays, I tend to start losing count of how many adults I see in stores beating the stuffing out of each other over who's going to get the latest toy for their kid, making me wonder if they should be left alone to do the shopping. But yet I don't see anyone sitting there trying to do something like this for adults, I don't see sudden increases in security guards in malls, or restrictions on when adults can go there, because of the fact that some adults have been troublemakers in a store. Why do people only seem to do it with the teenagers?

Angela

 

[Ft. Worth Frog]

Are these actual police or just some good ol mall security? If just mall security, then it is hardly a police state-unless Ernst Rohm is head of security there.

 

[anitram]

If somebody built a mall without children, I'd pay premium prices just to shop there in order to preserve my own sanity.

 

[martha]

wow, that's really odd. we don't have anything like that around here. Is it the mall's right to make rules like that? it just doesn't seem right.

I go to the mall alone all the time, we never cause any trouble (well, except for the time we got thrown out of the sex store cos my 2 guy friends got in a light sabor fight with some objects I won't name...and the time we got kicked out of brookstone cos my friend fell asleep in the massage chair... good times)

seriously though, this is incredibly stupid.

I find it odd that you don't support this mall's efforts to keep suspicious people out of the mall. You're sure for it when it involves people of a certain ethnic group.

Oh wait, haven't I been saying that your tune would change once this kind of crap affected you?

 

[FizzingWhizzbees]

I find it odd that you don't support this mall's efforts to keep suspicious people out of the mall.

Why are people under the age of 18 automatically "suspicious people"?

 

[Angela Harlem]

They're not. At least, I doubt Martha intended that. I see this kind of thing as an (unfair?) policy because it is impossible to identify who is a trouble maker. Because it is impossible, does that mean nothing should be done, however?
I'm firmly in 2 minds. Overall, I hate people's rights being infringed upon, but I equally detest violence, theft, public property damage and hooliganism. Undoubtedly the reason this came into place with youth being the highest percentage of offenders?

 

[VertigoGal]

I find it odd that you don't support this mall's efforts to keep suspicious people out of the mall. You're sure for it when it involves people of a certain ethnic group.

Oh wait, haven't I been saying that your tune would change once this kind of crap affected you?

if there is a string of related terrorist attacks on malls by a group of people who are all under 18, whose aim is to annihilate all adults, then I think it would be rational to search teens more frequently before entering malls. not completely ban them (obviously "people of a certain ethnic group" aren't banned from flying on airplanes, that would be ridiculous).

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

They have that rule at the mall where I shop. I agree it is unfair to punish the mostly good kids because of a few..but that's the way it works in "adultworld" sometimes too. It's not fair but that's the way it is. I know it gets on my nerves sometimes when I'm shopping. One time at this mall some teenage guys were harassing a handicapped man - this was during the daytime. If they hadn't stopped I was ready to confront them.

Some teenagers when they are bored and with their friends can behave in inappropriate and annoying ways. The mall is concerned about losing business, but obviously they will lose teenage business. Supposedly they have so much disposable income, but most seem to be hanging around the mall rather than shopping.

 

[martha]

Why are people under the age of 18 automatically "suspicious people"?

They're not. I was making a point to VertigoGal from another thread.

 

[martha]

if there is a string of related terrorist attacks on malls by a group of people who are all under 18, whose aim is to annihilate all adults, then I think it would be rational to search teens more frequently before entering malls. not completely ban them (obviously "people of a certain ethnic group" aren't banned from flying on airplanes, that would be ridiculous).

But you yourself gave two instances of teens causing trouble at malls. Others in this thread have given examples of teens behaving badly at malls. According to your reasoning, that means teens are automatically subject to a different set of rules than non-teens.

Now you'll say that they're not terrorists intent on killing, but it's that same idea, just taken down several notches. There is a group of people which has a few members of it intent on doing something wrong. Singling out that entire group because of the actions of a few members is wrong.


Like I've been saying all along. Unlike you.

 

[VertigoGal]

Yes, but prohibiting teens from going into the mall without an adult is akin to prohibiting Muslims from flying on airplanes without a non-Muslim sponsor. Just as searching Muslim travellers at a higher rate (not exclusively) makes sense, it is also rational to station security guards more often at stores in the mall that attract large numbers of teens. It was inconvenient that I was kicked out of the store because I have some very immature friends tsk: ), but I understand why.

 

[financeguy]

Customs people have triggers for stopping people and a young male Muslim, who pays for his flight in cash, is definitely a trigger.

And frankly, I can understand why.

 

[martha]

Yes, but prohibiting teens from going into the mall without an adult is akin to prohibiting Muslims from flying on airplanes without a non-Muslim sponsor.

Nope. Teens are underage, and their parents are legally responsible for them. Big difference.

Just as searching Muslim travellers at a higher rate (not exclusively) makes sense, it is also rational to station security guards more often at stores in the mall that attract large numbers of teens.

You'll start bitching about this if it happens to you.

But why not go one step further like this mall has? Nip the problem in the bud. Just don't let 'em in.

 

[deep]

[No message]

 

[VertigoGal]

Nope. Teens are underage, and their parents are legally responsible for them. Big difference.



You'll start bitching about this if it happens to you.

But why not go one step further like this mall has? Nip the problem in the bud. Just don't let 'em in.

Haven't I said that I've been thrown out of stores before even though I technically didn't do anything wrong?

Yes, and let's not let Muslims ride airplanes at all! That'll get to the root of the problem!

 

[melon]

Malls are funny postmodernist constructions, because they have the characteristics of a public place, but are actually privately owned and managed.

And probably if a mall decided that it no longer wanted minorities, it could do so legally. After all, the Boy Scouts were allowed to be bigoted, since they're a private organization.

Melon

 

[Teta040]

FYI, yes, this is the entire weekend, day and night.

And like I said, I live across from this mall and am in and out of there all the time. I can personally attest that there was no teen problem, judging by the crowds. A bit noisy, but no conspicuous "mall rats." Maybe there was an incident in the parking lot, I don't know. I'd say there was mall security in front of those tables at the door, but there are actual police around in noticable droves. This took effect 2 wks ago, so it isn't a response to the headlines, security, etc.

Teens have been shopping in enclosed malls for decades. I did, back in my teen yrs in the 80's. What I see this is is part of a slow but steady crackdown in young peoples' rights. Why, I can't imagine. The crime rate always goes up signifgantly when there is a demographic increase in the teen polulation, but right now, society is aging, noticably. What warrants this drastic response? Moonlit Angel, bravo. You took the words right out of my mouth.

And to those accusing our teen responders of hypocrisy, my response is"You who are without sin, cast the first stone." Your response is standard procedure for those who are guilty themsleves. YOu are guilty of the very failures you accuse those who have the LEAST power in our society of addressing. It is the worst time ever to be under 21 in this country. I have a 19-yr old sister, and she fills me in. Since Columbine, and even before, we have delared virtual war on our young people, in every way, and if they someday rose up and took out their anger on their parents' generation once they rose to positions of political power, I wouldn't blame them. Most of their "sins" are a a big payback for 20 yrs of yuppie work schedules and dumping them in front of a computer. They need love, patience and understanding, not "quality time." We're already content to frig them over wheb it comes to Social Security, but so what? They've lazy slackers anyway, work would be good for them. RIGHT? As a whole, children today are being punished for the sins of a few. I won't go into how many rights have been stripped away....I don't know how you guys stand it. We've passed our "three strikes" laws, we've cut their college funding, we've made it all but impossible for most to get decent health insurance once they graduate, or pass 26 and are off their parent's plans

.But then, you didn't know the freedoms we had. And this is NOT a post-9/11 thing. I remember the late 90's. Before 9/11, Teen America was collectivily guilty until proven innocent.

So before you accuse teens of being apathetic, I say: off. I don't notice YOU protesting for minorityrights either. YOu're too busy arresting teens for wearing certain colors or T-shirts slogans in school.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

Because it is impossible, does that mean nothing should be done, however?

Something should indeed be done: let teens go there at any times of the day when the mall is open, and if an employee sees a teenager causing trouble, then they should deal with that teenager and that teenager only, notify their parents and then the parents can also decide on an appropriate punishment for their child. That way, the people who commit crimes get the punishment they deserve, and the rest of the teenagers, who've done nothing wrong, can go about their business and enjoy their time in the mall.

Also, thanks, Teta. Glad you agree .

Angela

 

[martha]

And to those accusing our teen responders of hypocrisy, my response is"You who are without sin, cast the first stone." Your response is standard procedure for those who are guilty themsleves. YOu are guilty of the very failures you accuse those who have the LEAST power in our society of addressing. It is the worst time ever to be under 21 in this country.


.But then, you didn't know the freedoms we had. And this is NOT a post-9/11 thing. I remember the late 90's. Before 9/11, Teen America was collectivily guilty until proven innocent.

So before you accuse teens of being apathetic, I say: off. I don't notice YOU protesting for minorityrights either. YOu're too busy arresting teens for wearing certain colors or T-shirts slogans in school.

I'm not sure who this was addressed to because all the posts here have been on the side of teens' rights.

I was making a different point to VertigoGal, which she was getting just fine.