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Old 06-05-2007, 02:03 PM   #121
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Originally posted by Irvine511


i agree that a belief in literal creationism is far less widespread than a belief that homosexuality is condemned in the Bible.

i think the better question is to wonder why the obession with a "sin" that doesn't even make the top 10, let alone more than a few highly debatable passing mentions. the question is why many evangelical protestant politicized -- the Falwell people -- have made this one of the centerpieces of their social political platform, right along with pro-life/anti-choice.

why the obsession with a sexual orientation that harms absolutely no one?

why?
Honestly, I think a lot of it is political. That's why I can't stand the religious right -- they've hijacked the faith and claim to speak for it. It's not Christian to respond to homosexuality as they have, and it saddens me that you and others may be turned off to the faith because of that misrepresentation. I've even been caught up in that mentality as I seek to understand and grow as a Christian.

What I've gotten back to is simply the Gospel. It all starts and ends with Christ. God's love in human flesh who died, rose again, and through his blood allows us the opportunity to be forgiven of our "crimes against God" and seen as pure. You need him, whether homosexuality is a sin or not, I need him for all my junk, everyone does. We can all be covered by his grace as his grace is extended to all of us.

That's where any Christian should begin and end.
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Old 06-05-2007, 02:04 PM   #122
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I can disagree and still love. There is a difference between tolerance as the world defines it and respect. Personally, I don't base my identity on my orientation, and if someone disagreed with my orientation, I would hope they still could respect me.
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Old 06-05-2007, 02:07 PM   #123
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Originally posted by popsadie
I can disagree and still love. There is a difference between tolerance as the world defines it and respect. Personally, I don't base my identity on my orientation, and if someone disagreed with my orientation, I would hope they still could respect me.


it's impossible to "disagree" with homosexuality, or any sexual orientation. it's like disagreeing with being left-handed or having red hair. it's logically absurd.
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Old 06-05-2007, 02:08 PM   #124
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


I was being somewhat tongue in cheek, you often forget I'm a believer myself, so who's putting who in a box?

My point is you'll never convince those that ignore science and logic.

There have been many believers in here who have talked in depth about interpretation Dreadsox, Ormus(Melon), myself and others often to be ignored.
Sometimes I'm bad at reading tongue and cheek comments for what they are. I'm sorry I misunderstood you.

As far as your efforts to help Christians see the other side, use me as evidence. I can honestly say that FYM has helped me approach the Bible with more humility and to seek a more genuine understanding of other's views. Where I do defend the Bible, I at least have more respect for people and their views.
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Old 06-05-2007, 02:12 PM   #125
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I disagree with it being natural. This is the turning point of our conversation. I hold to the scriptural views of it stated in the new testament over scientific findings. Still, I am not going to use it to hate you or to vote for things that would harm you. I interpret science in light of scripture and not the other way around. I realize the interpretation issues about homosexuality...especially in the OT...but happen to believe Paul when it comes to homosexuality. Sorry if you see it as absurd.
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Old 06-05-2007, 02:12 PM   #126
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Originally posted by popsadie
I can disagree and still love. There is a difference between tolerance as the world defines it and respect. Personally, I don't base my identity on my orientation, and if someone disagreed with my orientation, I would hope they still could respect me.
But you are doing more than purely disagreeing with an opinion. You are telling them their love is wrong, their relationships are wrong etc.

Many people define themselves by husband, wife, etc that's what humans do, even in the Bible.
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Old 06-05-2007, 02:15 PM   #127
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Originally posted by popsadie
I realize the interpretation issues about homosexuality...especially in the OT...but happen to believe Paul when it comes to homosexuality. Sorry if you see it as absurd.
Do you believe Paul's view of women over everything else as well?

And why was it just Paul and no one else, Jesus never mentioned it...
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Old 06-05-2007, 02:19 PM   #128
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Do you believe Paul's view of women over everything else as well?

And why was it just Paul and no one else, Jesus never mentioned it...
This isn't really a fair comparison though, Paul's view of women is seen as a cultural thing. I might be wrong, but I think those views were expressed to one church -- likely crazy Corinth -- and he expressed differing views elsewhere.
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Old 06-05-2007, 02:28 PM   #129
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This isn't really a fair comparison though, Paul's view of women is seen as a cultural thing. I might be wrong, but I think those views were expressed to one church -- likely crazy Corinth -- and he expressed differing views elsewhere.
So how is this not a fair comparison? Did Paul say it was a cultural thing? Actually Paul's view of women was pretty degrading throughout.
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Old 06-05-2007, 02:30 PM   #130
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Originally posted by popsadie
I disagree with it being natural. This is the turning point of our conversation. I hold to the scriptural views of it stated in the new testament over scientific findings. Still, I am not going to use it to hate you or to vote for things that would harm you. I interpret science in light of scripture and not the other way around. I realize the interpretation issues about homosexuality...especially in the OT...but happen to believe Paul when it comes to homosexuality. Sorry if you see it as absurd.


but science and the experience of millions upon millions of gay people demonstrably proves you wrong. its like saying you disagree with the sky being blue or you disagree that the days get shorter in the winter if you live in the northern hempisphere.

it strikes me as being willfully ignorant in order to justify a deeply felt belief system.

and just what is a gay person to do? be celibate? marry a straight person and make two people miserable?
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Old 06-05-2007, 02:31 PM   #131
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Ok...Paul and women. The thing about this is that Paul referenced women leaders in Romans, even specifically referring to a deaconess named Phoebe. Although I am aware of what is said about women leaders in his letter to Ephesians in 1 Timothy and in ! Corinthians 14. 34, his acknowledgment of Phoebe as a deaconness in Romans 16 1:2 tells me that the advice was specific to the Ephesians a. This is why I specifically see what he says to the Ephesians and Corinthians as specific messages to individual churches.
Seriously though, can I not hold a view that disagrees with something without having to hate the person that believes something different?
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Old 06-05-2007, 02:35 PM   #132
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Maybe you are right Irvine. Maybe it is to justify a deeply held belief system. Still, it is not using the bible to justify hatred of gays. To be honest...I've moved further to the right over time on this matter. I certainly didn't start out hating gays and then looking for religion to justify my hate.
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Old 06-05-2007, 02:45 PM   #133
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
My point is that as a behaviour it is a matter of consensual acts between two or more individuals, it is a matter of liberty and it wouldn't matter if it was hard wired or elective it isn't wrong.
So are you still asking me a question here? I don't see anything wrong with homosexuality if that's what you are asking. It's natural, so God clearly doesn't either.
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Old 06-05-2007, 02:50 PM   #134
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Originally posted by popsadie
Maybe you are right Irvine. Maybe it is to justify a deeply held belief system. Still, it is not using the bible to justify hatred of gays. To be honest...I've moved further to the right over time on this matter. I certainly didn't start out hating gays and then looking for religion to justify my hate.


by saying you "disagree" with a naturally occuring orientation -- in the face of overwhelming science -- what other conclusions are to be drawn other than hate? disgust? pity? revulsion?

and what does it say about your religion if it leads you to hate/disgust/pity/revulsion towards a well-defined group of people who exist in all cultures across all countries in all races of all religions and throughghout history?
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Old 06-05-2007, 02:52 PM   #135
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Originally posted by popsadie
I disagree with it being natural. This is the turning point of our conversation. I hold to the scriptural views of it stated in the new testament over scientific findings. Still, I am not going to use it to hate you or to vote for things that would harm you. I interpret science in light of scripture and not the other way around. I realize the interpretation issues about homosexuality...especially in the OT...but happen to believe Paul when it comes to homosexuality. Sorry if you see it as absurd.
There are plenty of inaccuracies in the Bible. Plenty. If you pick and choose them, then it IS using the Bible to discriminate. If you are going to the letter, as you are in this case, then it would be contadictory to not go to the letter in all Bible cases.
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