"My god is true, your god is false"

[Irvine511]

what prevents me from embracing Chirstianity -- or, i should say, "the main thing" -- is the insistence upon a single path to God, that all other roads are false ones, and the other 5bn people on earth are sadly mistaken.

 

[coemgen]

But, again, consider the sacrifice that Christianity tells us God made. If he went through all that trouble to save us from our sins and then let us chose another way to him, he wouldn't be a just God and the sacrifice was pointless.

 

[BVS]

If he went through all that trouble to save us from our sins and then let us chose another way to him, he wouldn't be a just God and the sacrifice was pointless.

A woman is pregnant knowing she's giving up this kid for adoption, she gives birth and dies while in labor. The kid is raised is a loving home all his life not knowing of the sacrifice this woman made, does that make the sacrifice pointless?

 

[coemgen]

A woman is pregnant knowing she's giving up this kid for adoption, she gives birth and dies while in labor. The kid is raised is a loving home all his life not knowing of the sacrifice this woman made, does that make the sacrifice pointless?

That's not a fair comparison though. If you're trying to talk about people who've never heard about Christ, I see where you're going. But those who've heard of Christ have to respond to the sacrifice. Just because he made it doesn't mean everyone's covered. You have to accept it.

 

[sulawesigirl4]

That's not a fair comparison though. If you're trying to talk about people who've never heard about Christ, I see where you're going. But those who've heard of Christ have to respond to the sacrifice. Just because he made it doesn't mean everyone's covered. You have to accept it.

Why do you have to "accept" it for it to be valid?

 

[Irvine511]

But, again, consider the sacrifice that Christianity tells us God made. If he went through all that trouble to save us from our sins and then let us chose another way to him, he wouldn't be a just God and the sacrifice was pointless.

it's obviously not pointless to you.

 

[Irvine511]

Why do you have to "accept" it for it to be valid?

because so many Christians seem to need the validation?

 

[Irvine511]

That's not a fair comparison though. If you're trying to talk about people who've never heard about Christ, I see where you're going. But those who've heard of Christ have to respond to the sacrifice. Just because he made it doesn't mean everyone's covered. You have to accept it.

you're really making it out to be an insurance policy, the Geico of religions.

my Hindu friends are most assuredly not going to hell, or whatever, when they die. they've well heard of Christ, they're first generation Indian-Americans, and they're simply not interested. their parents' religion makes sense to them, it speaks to them, they've had experiences with their religion i would imagine are well on par with that of any Christian, and their religion is no more, or less, "true" than yours is.

and it's the inability to understand that -- the insistence upon exclucivity -- that really, really turns me off.

 

[coemgen]

Why do you have to "accept" it for it to be valid?

Well, God gave us free will. He holds true to that "law." We have the choice to accept him as our Lord and Savior, or we can say "No, I want to do it my way." He's not going to force us into something we don't want.

 

[coemgen]

it's obviously not pointless to you.

You're right. But I was speaking in general terms. If he lets us choose another way, then why did he die for us if we could just choose another way?

 

[coemgen]

you're really making it out to be an insurance policy, the Geico of religions.

my Hindu friends are most assuredly not going to hell, or whatever, when they die. they've well heard of Christ, they're first generation Indian-Americans, and they're simply not interested. their parents' religion makes sense to them, it speaks to them, they've had experiences with their religion i would imagine are well on par with that of any Christian, and their religion is no more, or less, "true" than yours is.

and it's the inability to understand that -- the insistence upon exclucivity -- that really, really turns me off.

That's fine, but it's not Christians you need to take it up with, it's Christ. And most religions have some form of exclucivity anyway.

 

[anitram]

and it's the inability to understand that -- the insistence upon exclucivity -- that really, really turns me off.

Nothing has turned me away from Christianity more than Christians. Not from God, but from Christianity, as it is practiced. When I stepped away, and kept my faith, but not my religion, I started to feel free. I think my life has been better, I think I've been happier and incidentally, I think I've been a better person. Sort of in the way that deep was talking about before. I don't miss the confines of religion, and I most definitely don't miss dealing with the followers.

I don't think that evangelical Christians understand how much harm they are causing their religion with their brand of ministry or whatever they call it. I never really had this problem with liberal Protestants or Catholics - they never cared to preach and most of them lived very secular lives.

 

[Irvine511]

That's fine, but it's not Christians you need to take it up with, it's Christ. And most religions have some form of exclucivity anyway.

that's a total cop out.

you cannot refer to the bible as the literal word of Jesus. it's intellectually bogus to do so.

what does your intellect tell you?

 

[martha]

That's fine, but it's not Christians you need to take it up with, it's Christ.

How can you dare to assume to know about what Christ meant, said, felt, or intended?

 

[deep]

coemgen

How seriously do you take the 9th Commandment?

 

[popsadie]

In my mind, Coemgen is simply advocating scripture based beliefs about salvation and redemption. You can accept it or not. It is your choice. Coemgen isn't going to lie about his scriptural beliefs to make it a wide road. Jesus himself, if you believe that the four gospels do express Jesus' words, says that the road to death is wide and the road to salvation is narrow.....Seriously, you can deny Christianity if you want to...but it is, in my mind, wrong for you to expect Christians to go against their beliefs just so God can be 'fair' in your mind.

 

[Irvine511]

In my mind, Coemgen is simply advocating scripture based beliefs about salvation and redemption. You can accept it or not. It is your choice. Coemgen isn't going to lie about his scriptural beliefs to make it a wide road. Jesus himself, if you believe that the four gospels do express Jesus' words, says that the road to death is wide and the road to salvation is narrow.....Seriously, you can deny Christianity if you want to...but it is, in my mind, wrong for you to expect Christians to go against their beliefs just so God can be 'fair' in your mind.

and the end result is that the exclusivist Christian feels that much more special, and there's a great big world to minister/colonize.

such beliefs serve those that choose to be narrow, and no one else.

i cannt accept it.

and this goes to the problem i have with the fundamentalist mindset. there's only ever one moment of actual consciousness. and that happens at the point where one makes the choice to become a "believer," however that is defined.

everything after that is simply trying to prove that one is the best student in class. that one has learnt his lessons better than anyone else. that one has been dutiful. shut off the brain, shut off the intuition, shut off the common sense, for these are all worldly, earthly, human things. see through God's eyes, one thinks.

and one becomes a robot of fundamentalism. a practice less than human.

 

[deep]

In my mind, Coemgen is simply advocating scripture based beliefs about salvation and redemption. You can accept it or not. It is your choice. Coemgen isn't going to lie about his scriptural beliefs to make it a wide road. Jesus himself, if you believe that the four gospels do express Jesus' words, says that the road to death is wide and the road to salvation is narrow.....Seriously, you can deny Christianity if you want to...but it is, in my mind, wrong for you to expect Christians to go against their beliefs just so God can be 'fair' in your mind.

talking about people you don't know

people you don't associate with

people you can not possibly have any understanding about

just making up things and telling stories that are not grounded in any reality

is bearing false witness against your neighbor

 

[popsadie]

deep...all coemgan is doing is telling what he believes is scripture. When I hear that believing that the bible has Jesus' words is being "intellectually unsound", it does frustrate me. Actually, I don't believe in a "single moment' of awareness..but I do believe that you have to accept what the bible says about salvation in order to accept it. Other wise...why would one even Want to be there?

 

[Irvine511]

deep...all coemgan is doing is telling what he believes is scripture. When I hear that believing that the bible has Jesus' words is being "intellectually unsound", it does frustrate me. Actually, I don't believe in a "single moment' of awareness..but I do believe that you have to accept what the bible says about salvation in order to accept it. Other wise...why would one even Want to be there?

what is "intellecually unsound" is taking Jesus, word-for-word, as if he were caught on camera by a documentary film crew, and by trusting the ENGLISH translation of the bible more than you trust your own faculties.

you've also missed the point of a single moment of awareness. that seems to have already passed for you. now, it's be the best student in class. only an "A" gets you salvation.

 

[deep]

Seriously, you can deny Christianity if you want to...but it is, in my mind, wrong for you to expect Christians to go against their beliefs just so God can be 'fair' in your mind.

I do believe you,
when you say, "in my mind"


But I can tell you this,
every time one dose not choose "Love"
they are denying "Christ"

not in my mind,
but in this world and the next.

 

[popsadie]

Ok Irvine...what are you going to go on? Do you consider what ever you believe about certain things to hold more water than the scriptures? Yes...there are translation issues...but...most study bibles do address at least some of those. I will probably never read Crime and Punishment in Russian, but I believe the English translation does get over the main story...Seriously, without scripture...how can you know God's will...or what Christ did...if you want to be Christian?

 

[Irvine511]

Ok Irvine...what are you going to go on? Do you consider what ever you believe about certain things to hold more water than the scriptures? Yes...there are translation issues...but...most study bibles do address at least some of those. I will probably never read Crime and Punishment in Russian, but I believe the English translation does get over the main story...Seriously, without scripture...how can you know God's will...or what Christ did...if you want to be Christian?

i will go on the fact that the Gospels might be divinely inspired, they are not written by God. they are written by men. people. humans. with agendas. it's the spirit of the law, never, ever the letter.

and when it comes to science, there are things that we *know* are true. evolution isn't a matter of belief, unless one wants to discard all science (and if you do, then i demand you turn in your opposable thumb).

study, learn, think, read, discuss, engage. do all these things. with Christians and non-Christians and atheists. and never think you've got all the answers, because you don't. respect others. learn from them. and realize that everyone is all working towards the same thing: an understanding that maybe, just maybe, we all have a common ancester, that we are all cut from the same possibly divine cloth and we just might continue to exist after our brains die and our hearts stop beating and we turn to dust.

and that all we know is thus:

"Do You Realize: that everyone you know
Someday will die

And instead of saying all of your goodbyes - let them know
You realize that life goes fast
It's hard to make the good things last
You realize the sun doesn't go down
It's just an illusion caused by the world spinning round."

 

[deep]

Ok Irvine...what are you going to go on? Do you consider what ever you believe about certain things to hold more water than the scriptures? Yes...there are translation issues...but...most study bibles do address at least some of those. I will probably never read Crime and Punishment in Russian, but I believe the English translation does get over the main story...Seriously, without scripture...how can you know God's will...or what Christ did...if you want to be Christian?

do you have any faith in the Holy Spirit?

I would consider that a better source than

"God Hates Fags"


I think if we have anything Christ actually said, it may be the Beatitudes.

They are pretty straight foward and 'ring true' for what Jesus of Nazareth might concern himself with.

 

[popsadie]

Deep, you are asking for Love without Justice. According to my admittedly novice understanding...God is both Just and Merciful. One must acknowledge one has gone against justice to receive forgiveness. Yes, we are to love others...but that same commandment says to Love your God. If we place making our neighbors happy over obeying God, even including the Great Commission, then we aren't fulfilling that commandment, in my understanding.

 

[popsadie]

Wait, as far as I know..we weren't even talking about what the bible had or didn't have to say about homosexuality. Rather, we were talking about the exclusivity of Christianity. In my mind, the Gospels are backed up by the Epistles regarding salvation. Yes, I know that the Gospels were written by man, but I believe that there is enough evidence in the NT to show that one must believe in and trust in Christ in order to be saved,,,if...one actually believes in Christianity....which is the real question here I suppose.

 

[Irvine511]

hence, we're back to being a good student.

 

[popsadie]

Trusting isn't being a good student. It isn't an intellectual exercise..its more instinctual. You can know alot, but if your faith and trust in Christ doesn't move you to do the thing you know do to do, even when the wrong thing seems more expedient...it is just being a good student.

 

[Ormus]

Wait, as far as I know..we weren't even talking about what the bible had or didn't have to say about homosexuality. Rather, we were talking about the exclusivity of Christianity.

Admittedly, this is how I interpreted this line of debate myself.

 

[Irvine511]

Trusting isn't being a good student. It isn't an intellectual exercise..its more instinctual. You can know alot, but if your faith and trust in Christ doesn't move you to do the thing you know do to do, even when the wrong thing seems more expedient...it is just being a good student.

but you're submitting. you're willing to accept someone to answer for you. and it's not god who's answering for you. it's another person.