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Old 06-04-2007, 11:14 PM   #76
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My beliefs regarding the OT-

Jesus fulfilled the OT.
Although Christians aren't required to fulfill all of the laws in the OT...the laws in the OT express the nature of God.
In the four gospels, Jesus didn't make the OT easier...he made it even more stringent.

I suppose my basic theology is based on my understanding of the four gospels. I believe that the rest of the New Testament should be interpreted in the light of the four gospels.
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Old 06-04-2007, 11:17 PM   #77
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Originally posted by popsadie
but I cannot deny that scripture does say a few things about it.
Do you eat cheese on your meat sandwich? 'Cause scripture says things about that as well.
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Old 06-05-2007, 07:03 AM   #78
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It is not a choice, so I don't see your point.
My point is that as a behaviour it is a matter of consensual acts between two or more individuals, it is a matter of liberty and it wouldn't matter if it was hard wired or elective it isn't wrong.
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Old 06-05-2007, 08:14 AM   #79
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Originally posted by popsadie
Honestly, I don't see myself ever going out and 'ministering' to homosexuals. This is an area of the scriptures that I struggle with, but I cannot deny that scripture does say a few things about it.
A couple of things on this subject:

1) Concepts translated in the Bible as referring to "homosexuality" are not referring to modern homosexuality. They are often in reference to archaic pagan idolatry rituals involving sex--which were bisexual orgies in worship of the gods. As such, the condemnation was likely a combination of furor against idolatry with what they saw as unloving and abusive sex acts. The linguistic clues are all over the place in the original texts, and, often, these very ambiguous passages end up making perfect sense in this context.

"Modern homosexuality," as we know it today, was not understood at even a basic level until 1874, which caused quite a lot of controversy at the time for suggesting that homosexual acts were not done by heterosexuals who were possessed or did it consciously out of hatred of God, and, even then, our modern understanding that it is not a result of mental illness or distress did not exist until a century after that.

2) Back to my discussion of "scientific Thomism" for a moment, this philosophy is why modern Biblical readers think that the Bible is sex obsessed. The Bible also happens to have some controversial passages regarding the morality of slavery (Mosaic Law allowed for slaves, and St. Paul calls for slaves to obey their masters more than once) and the place of women (St. Paul forbids women to instruct over men, which would pretty much make our entire educational system largely immoral), but we have correctly viewed these passages as the result of archaic customs. Why most Christians refuse to view the supposed anti-gay passages as archaic cultural relics on par with prohibitions against multi-fibered clothing is due to lingering prejudices stemming from that "scientific Thomism."

So, frankly, I cannot and refuse to accept the argument that "Biblically-based Christians" have a duty to, essentially, be anti-gay, because it is no more a part of the Bible today than it is a part of the Bible to own slaves or to ban female teachers.
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Old 06-05-2007, 10:58 AM   #80
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Ormus....again, I personally am undecided on the subject. I was just defending other christian's beliefs about homosexuality. It is funny that you mention Paul though. In Romans 1:26,27...Paul speaks explicitly against same sex sexual acts. He says that it was an indicator that the people were godless. This message is reinforced in Timothy 1:10.
To be honest, this is an area of scripture and church teaching that I struggle to reconcile. I have had several friends who practice homosexuality and a few of them believed in Christ. If you are right, and this is just a cultural thing, then I guess they have nothing to worry about. If you are wrong, and they believe in Christ, then I guess this is something God will work out within them....either way, I do not believe I am using my understanding of the scriptures to Hate gays.
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Old 06-05-2007, 11:12 AM   #81
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Originally posted by popsadie
I have had several friends who practice homosexuality and a few of them believed in Christ.


tell me, how do you "practice" heterosexuality?
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Old 06-05-2007, 11:12 AM   #82
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Originally posted by martha


Yeah, so maybe He didn't.

What spiritual gymnastics Christians are capable of when they want to feel good about hating and discriminating in the name of Jesus.

How convenient that the OT allows you to hate (just like God!) and essentially disregard Jesus when you get uncomfortable with someone's different sexuality.

As a follow-up, tell me this, where does God allow you, personally, to do what He does? Oh let's say, for example, hate?
God the Father and God the son are the same God. Like I've said before, Jesus spoke more about judgement than anybody. It's not spiritual gymnastics, it's knowing the Bible.
Never did I say anything about discriminating -- we were talking about hating the sin and loving the sinner. The Bible's clear God hates sin, but loves the sinner. The concept is Biblical. Plus, to clear it up I wasn't referring to me considering homosexuality a sin, I've said many times I'm undecided on the issue. I was explaining where many Christians come from. In regards to Christ and homosexuality, if homosexuality is a sin, then people who practice it need Christ. If it's natural and not a sin, those people need Christ, too, because we're all sinners. That's how I see it.
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Old 06-05-2007, 11:14 AM   #83
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Originally posted by Irvine511




tell me, how do you "practice" heterosexuality?
Don't you have to practice first? Practice makes perfect.
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Old 06-05-2007, 11:17 AM   #84
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Originally posted by Irvine511




but you can't "get" someone "out" of being gay.

and the more you lovingly attempt to do so, the more harm you are inflicting and self-hate you are inducing in and upon that gay person.

the whole Exodus movement is hate dressed up with love; it makes whatever Christian feel better about their hate -- because it's really love! -- and damages the gay person.

any other perspective is self-serving bullshit.

and i think you know that.
I understand that, Irvine. You're completley missing my point. I'm explaining where many Christians come from. Yes, they may be wrong, but that's there perspective. Until you see where they're coming from and they see where you're coming from, nobody's going to get anywhere. It's that simple.
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Old 06-05-2007, 11:17 AM   #85
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Quote:
Originally posted by popsadie
I have had several friends who practice homosexuality
Look at the way you're framing it.

Would you say, "I have had several friends who practice caucasianism?"
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Old 06-05-2007, 11:18 AM   #86
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Originally posted by coemgen


I understand that, Irvine. You're completley missing my point. I'm explaining where many Christians come from. Yes, they may be wrong, but that's there perspective. Until you see where they're coming from and they see where you're coming from, nobody's going to get anywhere. It's that simple.



i understand where they are coming from, but people are being psychologically damaged from all this "love." it's abuse, and it must stop.
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Old 06-05-2007, 11:19 AM   #87
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ormus


It is your constitutional right to believe in pseudoscience, just as it is my right to state that your beliefs on homosexuality are 35 years out of date. Scientific observations of homosexuality have determined that it is a part of nature, and observations of same-sex behavior within the animal kingdom have merely cemented this claim.

I certainly do understand where "Biblically minded Christians" are coming from, but even at that, I disagree with your usage of that description, as I would categorize these arguments as argumentum ad populum, rather than based on any genuine understanding of the Bible.
Call it whatever you want, Ormus. Yay for you. My point, once again, was just trying to explain where many Christians come from. And, also, once again, I wasn't speaking as one of them.
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Old 06-05-2007, 11:20 AM   #88
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Originally posted by coemgen


I understand that, Irvine. You're completley missing my point. I'm explaining where many Christians come from. Yes, they may be wrong, but that's there perspective. Until you see where they're coming from and they see where you're coming from, nobody's going to get anywhere. It's that simple.
But why do we have to bend over backwards for Christians and nobody else? The perspective of a Muslim man in Saudi Arabia might be to beat his wife and kill his sister if she strays from family values. The perspective of a white racist down south might be that blacks have no place in polite society. We don't try to "see where they're coming from" because guess what - they're wrong, offensive and that's that. Period.
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Old 06-05-2007, 11:21 AM   #89
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511





i understand where they are coming from, but people are being psychologically damaged from all this "love." it's abuse, and it must stop.
And that's a perspective I'm trying to understand and respect. That's the perspective Christians need to hear. When the two sides actually listen to each other rather than condemn or judge, we'll get closer to peace on the issue.
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Old 06-05-2007, 11:24 AM   #90
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Quote:
Originally posted by anitram


But why do we have to bend over backwards for Christians and nobody else? The perspective of a Muslim man in Saudi Arabia might be to beat his wife and kill his sister if she strays from family values. The perspective of a white racist down south might be that blacks have no place in polite society. We don't try to "see where they're coming from" because guess what - they're wrong, offensive and that's that. Period.
A Christian trying to get a person out of a sin they feel is damaging though it may be natural, doesn't have the same heart as someone who beats or kills a person.

By immediately assuming any Chrisitan who considers homosexuality a sin has hate in their heart, is just as damaging to any attempt at understanding as anything else.
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