"My god is true, your god is false"

[coemgen]

Look at the way you're framing it.

Would you say, "I have had several friends who practice caucasianism?"

This is the perfect example of what I'm talking about -- this is the collision of the two perspectives. It's apples and oranges people. One side says it's natural, one doesn't. Both sides need to realize what the other is saying.

 

[popsadie]

One reason its worth "bending backwards" for "Christians" is simply because of numbers. If I lived in a land where its the majority of its member identified themselves as "muslim"....it might be beneficial for me, as a civil citizen, to understand where they were coming from. The US has many many people who identify themselves as Christian. For this reason, if for no other reason, it might be helpful to see where they derive their beliefs and understandings.

 

[popsadie]

I don't agree with premarital sex. Any friends that I have that do it...in my mind practice premarital sex. I don't hate them for it, but I don't agree with the practice. I suppose that is my belief about homosexuality. Your perspective differs, and I am ok with that.

 

[BVS]

This is the perfect example of what I'm talking about -- this is the collision of the two perspectives. It's apples and oranges people. One side says it's natural, one doesn't. Both sides need to realize what the other is saying.

I agree to a certain point, but I don't need to realize those that ignore science.

I've said this before and no one's responded to it, but the 'homosexuality is a sin' is the only sin pushed by "Christians" that doesn't also have some sort of social scientific or logical reasoning behind it as well. Why is that? Why just this one?

 

[Irvine511]

This is the perfect example of what I'm talking about -- this is the collision of the two perspectives. It's apples and oranges people. One side says it's natural, one doesn't. Both sides need to realize what the other is saying.

but understanding where someone is coming from doesn't make, say, creationism any more true. it just makes it more false.

 

[coemgen]

I agree to a certain point, but I don't need to realize those that ignore science.

I've said this before and no one's responded to it, but the 'homosexuality is a sin' is the only sin pushed by "Christians" that doesn't also have some sort of social scientific or logical reasoning behind it as well. Why is that? Why just this one?

That's a great point. I think it stands out because deals with sexuality and a form of sexuality that's very different than what most people experience.

You're right though, it shoudn't be singled out as much as it is, even if it is in fact not natural for all or most. We all sin. We all disappoint God and fail to live up to his standards. If homosexuality is or isn't a sin, a homosexual still needs forgiveness through Christ. Not because they're bad people, but because they're sinful like me and everyone else.

 

[Irvine511]

And that's a perspective I'm trying to understand and respect. That's the perspective Christians need to hear. When the two sides actually listen to each other rather than condemn or judge, we'll get closer to peace on the issue.

but it's not a perspective. it's not an opinion. it is a fact, insofar as the universal agreement of doctors and psychologists can be considered a fact. homosexuality is a naturally occuring, inalterable orientation, it's every bit as innate as heterosexuality, and the only damage done by homosexuality is when someone is attempts to "cure" someone of it or when one grows up in a homophobic society.

it's a bit like the evolution thing i was talking about. creationism holds no scientific water. none. scientifically, it's 100% bogus. i see no reason to respect it or understand it as a valid perspective.

 

[coemgen]

but understanding where someone is coming from doesn't make, say, creationism any more true. it just makes it more false.

Yes, but it at least allows meaningful dialogue to take place. Isn't that worth it? Is your objective of educating people with the other perspective going to take place otherwise?

 

[popsadie]

Depends on what you mean by creationism. There is no scientific proof that says that there was or was not a creator. Science does say that the earth and its creatures changed through time, but it doesn't say that there wasn't a mind behind it.

 

[Irvine511]

I don't agree with premarital sex. Any friends that I have that do it...in my mind practice premarital sex. I don't hate them for it, but I don't agree with the practice. I suppose that is my belief about homosexuality. Your perspective differs, and I am ok with that.

i've been in a relationship for 2 years and we are totally in love with one another and if we were heterosexual, marriage would be entering the picture right now.

is this "practicing" homosexuality?

or is it just the ass fucking that christians seem so obsessed with that is the "practice" of homosexuality?

love, commitment, sharing lives together, trust, friendship ... these are all "practices" of homosexuals as well.

 

[coemgen]

but it's not a perspective. it's not an opinion. it is a fact, insofar as the universal agreement of doctors and psychologists can be considered a fact. homosexuality is a naturally occuring, inalterable orientation, it's every bit as innate as heterosexuality, and the only damage done by homosexuality is when someone is attempts to "cure" someone of it or when one grows up in a homophobic society.

Don't tell that to me, tell it to people with differing views.

it's a bit like the evolution thing i was talking about. creationism holds no scientific water. none. scientifically, it's 100% bogus. i see no reason to respect it or understand it as a valid perspective.

If you want people with differing views than your's to respect your's, than maybe you should respect where they're coming from and understand that they, whether they're right or wrong, have convictions, too. It may not be right, but it's valid to them.

 

[Irvine511]

If you want people with differing views than your's to respect your's, than maybe you should respect where they're coming from and understand that they, whether they're right or wrong, have convictions, too. It may not be right, but it's valid to them.

but i can only do this to a point.

if someone is going to keep insisting to me that the sky is purple, i see no reason to respect that perspective.

 

[popsadie]

Great...and if your mind is at peace with it, go for it. I'm not going to try to stop you and I am not going to try to "cure" you. Personally, I am for civil unions. I understand why the church is hesitant to perform religious marriages, but I don't think that a civil state that is not a theocracy has a right to ban non relgious unions.

 

[BVS]

That's a great point. I think it stands out because deals with sexuality and a form of sexuality that's very different than what most people experience.

And this I think is the issue. Fear of the minority, for some reason it's ingrained in human beings. And they've used religion to justify these fears since the dawn of time.

Interracial marriage, women's rights, etc...

 

[Irvine511]

Great...and if your mind is at peace with it, go for it. I'm not going to try to stop you and I am not going to try to "cure" you. Personally, I am for civil unions. I understand why the church is hesitant to perform religious marriages, but I don't think that a civil state that is not a theocracy has a right to ban non relgious unions.

we totally agree here.

but do you understand why it's offensive to refer to a sexual orientation as a "practice"?

you're reducing whole people and relationships into a sex act.

 

[popsadie]

Yes..I can see where you are coming from. We differ on this view, but I can see why you were offended by the way I stated it.

 

[coemgen]

but i can only do this to a point.

if someone is going to keep insisting to me that the sky is purple, i see no reason to respect that perspective.

That's understandable, but at the very least don't deem them hateful because they think the sky is purple. Help them understand why it's blue.

 

[INDY500]

'scuse me while I kiss the sky.

 

[BVS]

That's understandable, but at the very least don't deem them hateful because they think the sky is purple. Help them understand why it's blue.

How do you help someone understand who thinks they are discriminating out of love and has all the absolutes?

 

[coemgen]

Use the scientifc proof you say there is and discuss how the Bible may be interpreted wrong on the subject.

 

[BVS]

Use the scientifc proof you say there is and discuss how the Bible may be interpreted wrong on the subject.

Um the world was created in 144 hours, dinosaurs only lasted for 24 hours of that, and it's physically possible to build a boat large enough to inhabit 2 of every single species ever.

Yeah I don't think science is going to work for these folks.

 

[Irvine511]

That's understandable, but at the very least don't deem them hateful because they think the sky is purple. Help them understand why it's blue.

i can help them understand, yet i have to acknowledge that real people are harmed by an insistence on a purple sky. and these real people sometimes kill themselves.

 

[coemgen]

Um the world was created in 144 hours, dinosaurs only lasted for 24 hours of that, and it's physically possible to build a boat large enough to inhabit 2 of every single species ever.

Yeah I don't think science is going to work for these folks.

Not every Christian, including this one, believe in a litteral interpretation of creation. Again, if you're going to put people in a box, you'll get nowhere. What's your alternative to scientific proof and peaceful dialogue about what the Bible says?

 

[martha]

Personally, I am for civil unions. I understand why the church is hesitant to perform religious marriages, but I don't think that a civil state that is not a theocracy has a right to ban non relgious unions.

And yet I can get a civil marriage.

Why not a gay couple?

 

[Irvine511]

Not every Christian, including this one, believe in a litteral interpretation of creation. Again, if you're going to put people in a box, you'll get nowhere. What's your alternative to scientific proof and peaceful dialogue about what the Bible says?

i agree that a belief in literal creationism is far less widespread than a belief that homosexuality is condemned in the Bible.

i think the better question is to wonder why the obession with a "sin" that doesn't even make the top 10, let alone more than a few highly debatable passing mentions. the question is why many evangelical protestant politicized -- the Falwell people -- have made this one of the centerpieces of their social political platform, right along with pro-life/anti-choice.

why the obsession with a sexual orientation that harms absolutely no one?

why?

 

[coemgen]

i can help them understand, yet i have to acknowledge that real people are harmed by an insistence on a purple sky. and these real people sometimes kill themselves.

And that should be part of the discussion, too. Like I'm saying, many Christians aren't out to hurt homosexuals, even if they may be wrong, and if they know other ways in which homosexuals are hurting, they'll likely want to help ease that hurt.

 

[popsadie]

I think that coemgan and I are on the same page when it comes to this. I see myself as a theological evolutionist personally. I disagree with homosexuals regarding their views, but would see a law that forbid it or discriminated against it as unjust. I just think that sometimes Christianity is painted on these boards with a broad and unfair brush.

 

[popsadie]

Honestly, I wish Christians would get off the homosexuality kick. Yes, the bible does tell them it is wrong...but I believe that the church in general would be better off if they focused on other things. The same NT does say they will know Christians by their love and hospitality....not their right beliefs.

 

[BVS]

Not every Christian, including this one, believe in a litteral interpretation of creation. Again, if you're going to put people in a box, you'll get nowhere. What's your alternative to scientific proof and peaceful dialogue about what the Bible says?

I was being somewhat tongue in cheek, you often forget I'm a believer myself, so who's putting who in a box?

My point is you'll never convince those that ignore science and logic.

There have been many believers in here who have talked in depth about interpretation Dreadsox, Ormus(Melon), myself and others often to be ignored.

 

[BVS]

Honestly, I wish Christians would get off the homosexuality kick. Yes, the bible does tell them it is wrong...but I believe that the church in general would be better off if they focused on other things. The same NT does say they will know Christians by their love and hospitality....not their right beliefs.

Yet you say this:

I disagree with homosexuals regarding their views,

How are you showing love and hospitatilty this way?

And you haven't been able to dispute any of the issues with interpretation.