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Old 06-07-2007, 02:40 AM   #316
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Originally posted by butter7


Okay...

that's the logic:

One points a gun at your head, and say: if you don't follow me, I'll shoot you.

You call that LOVE? Come on....
That's not the logic though. You first have to have a better understanding of hell. It's not some place with flames and lava and crap, it's the absence of God. If we're not going to choose to spend eternity with God, he's not going to force us. It's all about choice.
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Old 06-07-2007, 02:48 AM   #317
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butter- I have failed your test. To be honest...I have only really read the Bagahavida and a little of the Koran. I don't know the specifics of every religion out there. I do believe that Buddhists believe that there is a path one can take to total elimination of desire and passion and I do believe that Hindus believe that one is reincarnated...I do believe that some Hindus believe this reincarnation will lead them to fellowship with Krishna.
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Old 06-07-2007, 02:49 AM   #318
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Quote:
Originally posted by coemgen


That's not the logic though. You first have to have a better understanding of hell. It's not some place with flames and lava and crap, it's the absence of God. If we're not going to choose to spend eternity with God, he's not going to force us. It's all about choice.
how did you know that? Been there before?
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Old 06-07-2007, 03:23 AM   #319
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This is why I don't prescribe to any Christian denomination... I'm quite embarassed to see the arrogance in certain people's responses. This is not the humility that Christ personified...
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Old 06-07-2007, 03:29 AM   #320
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Originally posted by popsadie
butter- I have failed your test. To be honest...I have only really read the Bagahavida and a little of the Koran. I don't know the specifics of every religion out there. I do believe that Buddhists believe that there is a path one can take to total elimination of desire and passion and I do believe that Hindus believe that one is reincarnated...I do believe that some Hindus believe this reincarnation will lead them to fellowship with Krishna.
Nothing to feel bad about it, popsadie, I could have failed any test related to Jewish religion too. Because I've never had a chance to research on it.

The two questions I asked is the most basic thing about the two religion, I suppose you could see it also? They might be the first sets of questions people would ask: What will the religion do to me, if I belived in?

The reason I choose Taoism and Buddhism is because the first one is spread regionally, and the second one has a pretty big believer base, one of the three main religions in the world, the other two are Christianity and Islam. And the linkage between Taoism and Buddism, quite significantly, is they share Gods. Taoism gods are respected by Mahayana Buddhism, and all the Buddhas and Bodhisattvas are worshipped by Taoism believer, as well.

The funny thing I found is that how people were influenced by one religion and then push the same logic to all other religions, then reject them for not fitting the logic. The Christian logic will not fit in the two religions I listed, as the answers are:

1. If one person believe in Taoism, what the highest level of attainment?

God(s).

2. If one person believe in Mahayana buddhism, what the highest level of attainment? How it different from Theravada buddhism?

the highest level of attainment for Mahayana followers is Buddha. The basic difference between Theravada buddhism and Mahayana buddhism is that in Theravada buddhism, believers is to save oneself, and the highest level of attainment for them is Arhat. They could never be a Buddha; and the duty for Mahayana Buddha is to guid people in the world from fall to hell, and save the souls that already in hell, back to life.

And as for literature reading, it might be an important part of Christian beliefe, but if you look at Zen, you will find that this denomination does not believe in literature document, as they believe that literature documentations have time restriction, what is correct today, might not be correct tomorrow. And for a note also, this kind of attitude was initially from Taoism.

And back to the point, if you took Buddhism, their god -- Buddha, not only forgive people's sin, but also save human souls which already in hell. It's basically incorrect to say that Christian God is the most forgiveable one, or the one have the most of the love.

Just as Buddhist couldn't prove the Christian God is false, Christian believers have no better chance to prove the Buddhism believe is wrong. Moreover, since these Gods, Buddhas been coexist for thousand of years, why couldn't we human do? Why should we segregate people by their sexual preference, religion...all that kind of crap?
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Old 06-07-2007, 03:42 AM   #321
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Don't buddhists believe in rebirth? Since when is there a dualistic destination in Buddhism?
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Old 06-07-2007, 03:50 AM   #322
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Quote:
Originally posted by popsadie
Don't buddhists believe in rebirth? Since when is there a dualistic destination in Buddhism?
For ordinary people, you and me: basically yes, if we didn't fall into hell. If we did, when we were saved, we still back to the circle.

For the one who achieved certain level: Yes. They might fall to hell too.

For the one who achieved Bodhisattvas level: They post-poned.

For Buddha: No

That's basically what they teach people. And if you ask me, well, I don't know. Can't remeber what I did in the previous life at all.
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Old 06-07-2007, 03:54 AM   #323
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Looked up Buddhism and noticed alot of differences between beliefs. Namely, Buddhists don't believe in a supreme being or savior. They also believe that salvation occurs because of what you do...not what is done for you.
There are too many differences in belief for me to subscribe to the same god...many paths theory. I'm not going to wage war on Buddhists. I will ask them what they believe and why and tell them the same, but I don't plan on forcing them to change religions. I suppose this is our fundamental disagreement...Different religions view God and spirituality in very different ways. One, if they are follow a path, must choose one...not a combination of several. I have chosen Christianity. It follows my understanding of the world better than karmic faiths and it's holy texts and my faith experiences within it are true to me.
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Old 06-07-2007, 04:03 AM   #324
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Quote:
Originally posted by popsadie
Looked up Buddhism and noticed alot of differences between beliefs. Namely, Buddhists don't believe in a supreme being or savior. They also believe that salvation occurs because of what you do...not what is done for you.
There are too many differences in belief for me to subscribe to the same god...many paths theory. I'm not going to wage war on Buddhists. I will ask them what they believe and why and tell them the same, but I don't plan on forcing them to change religions. I suppose this is our fundamental disagreement...Different religions view God and spirituality in very different ways. One, if they are follow a path, must choose one...not a combination of several. I have chosen Christianity. It follows my understanding of the world better than karmic faiths and it's holy texts and my faith experiences within it are true to me.
I've never doubted your faith on God, popsadie, and I don't think you'd have any problem to get along with Buddhists, even to make a few very good friends.

All I'm saying is what true to you might not be true to the others. People in other religion might have the same feeling as you stated here. It's unfair to say that one god is better than the other, especially when we have little understanding what the others really are. Just like you said, you could feel something, but you don't know what it is. It might be better or even safer to not be so sure about certain things.
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Old 06-07-2007, 04:12 AM   #325
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I believe that you are probably right. I have known followers of other faiths and they have told me that that way was the way for them. Still, the path I have chosen is Christianity. I believe that no one other than the creator knows why so many religions exist, but I do believe, in my current understanding, that a man Jesus did live 2000 years ago and was god/man and did die on a cross. This belief has brought me to the study of Judeo-Christian scriptures and other church writings. Out of curiosity....are you currently exploring Kahamayta Buddhism?

Butter...I'll check back in the morning..I'm getting too sleepy to type coherently;p Thank you for the respectful dialogue I have enjoyed it.
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Old 06-07-2007, 04:35 AM   #326
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Quote:
Originally posted by popsadie
I believe that you are probably right. I have known followers of other faiths and they have told me that that way was the way for them. Still, the path I have chosen is Christianity. I believe that no one other than the creator knows why so many religions exist, but I do believe, in my current understanding, that a man Jesus did live 2000 years ago and was god/man and did die on a cross. This belief has brought me to the study of Judeo-Christian scriptures and other church writings. Out of curiosity....are you currently exploring Kahamayta Buddhism?
I did some research a few monthes back, when I was reading U2 by U2. Honestly, I feel very sorry for Bono for some reason. As I said in the previous post, I have a cultural background which people believes all Gods are true, and all living forms are equal to Gods. I found it's extremely sad and pathetic for people to be afraid of God's power or decision or hell...that kind of things are crap to me.

I wish people could be strong, and free to live the way they want. If one god doesn't serve right, free to choose another. Gods are servants of all living forms, just like the rich has the responsibility to the poor, that's basically what I believed. So I throw the duty of saving Bono to Buddha. And actually, according to the buddhist standard, Bono is a qualified Bodhisattva, so he even free of falling into samsara. Oh well, hopefully, the Christian God and Buddha won't got into a big fight for that.

Sweet dream popsadie. I've learned a lot from you too.
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Old 06-07-2007, 06:25 AM   #327
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I'm afraid I'm very strongly atheist.
I think LaVey had better ideas than anything I've read in the bible.



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Old 06-07-2007, 08:00 AM   #328
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Quote:
Originally posted by coemgen
because it's as plain as day. read it for yourself. not all of the Bible has to be taken for a deeper meaning. a lot of it is very easy to undestand and is written in black and white language.
And this is why you folks tend to get into trouble. You think that you know God's Mind and intent. You think that texts written hundreds of years after the events are to be trusted, and that a particular human's interpretation of them can be the final word. I understand what faith is; I understand what unswerving belief is. But I cannot fathom the self-righteousness and arrogance of American Christians. It boggles me.
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Old 06-07-2007, 09:57 AM   #329
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Why don't you tell us what he really said when he said "I am the way, the truth and the life. Nobody gets to the father but by me."?

And what's this best student in the class crap? only an "A" gets you salvation? that's silly.


Coemgen: you know as well as i do that everything Christ "said" is secondhand information, written decades and decades after it was said. if not longer.

as for best student in class -- what i'm saying is that for the fundamentalist, there is only one moment where one has clarity and consciousness, and that is at the point where one chooses to believe. and then, after that, the mind, heart, and soul are put in the service of learning the letter of the thing, ignoring the spirit, and viewing all that happens in life thorugh this prism.

you believe in a loving God who controls all things on earth? and then, one day, a tsunami comes along and kills 250,000+ people, many of them children. what do you do? do you re-evaluate? do you struggle? do you despair?

no! for it is all God's will! you can't possibly understand why, so rejoice! praise him! for he knows better than you why!

there is a dearly departed poster who, in my view, was clearly the best student in class when it came to things like this. his intellect was tremendous, and his knowledge of scripture impressive.

but i never got a sense of consciousness or genuine self-awareness or struggle or even the glimmer of a moment where what he saw conflicted in some way with what he read in the Bible.

got a question about the Bible? look to the Bible for the answer.
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Old 06-07-2007, 09:59 AM   #330
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That's not the logic though. You first have to have a better understanding of hell. It's not some place with flames and lava and crap, it's the absence of God. If we're not going to choose to spend eternity with God, he's not going to force us. It's all about choice.


so atheists are living in hell?
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