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phillyfan26 said:
The only parts of religion that should be banned are those that have to do with specific segregation, like those religions that look at homosexuality (which is not a choice) as a sin. Homosexuality should not be looked upon as sinful, religion or not, when there is proof that they cannot control it.

In those cases, religion should be forced to alter itself.


Certain religions/beliefs should be forced to alter itself?

Do you really believe that?

What force? Gentle persuasion or something else?

Will I be fined, thrown in jail or executed if I fail to alter my religious beliefs?

Your thoughts here phillyfan26 are scary. I only read this thread once, but it seems that about half of the posts are in favor of some retrictions on religious belief and expression.

The ancient Romans didn't care about what gods or how many gods you worshiped. What got the early Christians in trouble and many killed was their belief that Jesus was the only way. They refused to bow to the emperor as god.



I love that rebel from Nazareth :)
 
"The only parts of religion that should be banned are those that have to do with specific segregation, like those religions that look at homosexuality (which is not a choice) as a sin. Homosexuality should not be looked upon as sinful, religion or not, when there is proof that they cannot control it.

In those cases, religion should be forced to alter itself. "


If Christians were after killing and harassing homosexuals, I could see your point, but they simply follow a religious text that says that homosexuality is perverse and a sexual sin. There is a difference between belief and discrimination.
 
popsadie2 said:
If Christians were after killing and harassing homosexuals, I could see your point, but they simply follow a religious text that says that homosexuality is perverse and a sexual sin. There is a difference between belief and discrimination.



christians do harass and kill homosexuals. all the time. ever heard of gay bashing? the entire bogus industry of reparation therapy is a cloak for the abuse of homosexuals. the shame that many Christian communities imbue into the lives and minds of gay youth that tragically result in disproportionate numbers of suicides amongst gay teens is murderous abuse. the refusal to grant homosexuals equal rights to heterosexuals whether in marriage or in something as basic as job discrimination is a very clear form of discrimination.

and many would debate, quite forcefully, your contention that the texts call a modern understanding of homosexuality perverse and a sexual sin.
 
the iron horse said:



Certain religions/beliefs should be forced to alter itself?

Do you really believe that?

What force? Gentle persuasion or something else?

Will I be fined, thrown in jail or executed if I fail to alter my religious beliefs?



do you still think the sun revolves around the earth?
 
Irvine511 said:




christians do harass and kill homosexuals. all the time. ever heard of gay bashing? the entire bogus industry of reparation therapy is a cloak for the abuse of homosexuals. the shame that many Christian communities imbue into the lives and minds of gay youth that tragically result in disproportionate numbers of suicides amongst gay teens is murderous abuse. the refusal to grant homosexuals equal rights to heterosexuals whether in marriage or in something as basic as job discrimination is a very clear form of discrimination.

I think the point being made is that non of this is Biblical Christianity.
 
coemgen said:


I think the point being made is that non of this is Biblical Christianity.



i agree that it isn't Biblical Christianity -- though some wouldn't agree -- but i thought the post was trying to make the point that Christians simply thought that homosexuality was sinful and gross, but that at least they weren't killing homosexuals, so it was totally okay.
 
lie a little

lie a lot

hate the sin (homosexuality)

is supporting actions against gays

to what ever extend they get carried
 
deep said:
lie a little

lie a lot

hate the sin (homosexuality)

is supporting actions against gays

to what ever extend they get carried

We've gone over this before though. Christians who believe homosexuality is a sin don't see it as something natural, therefore, they're not against it maliciously or in an attempt to discriminate, they're simply looking out for the best interest of that person as they would with any of us because we all sin. So, therefore, "hating the sin, loving the sinner" is perfectly fine.

Yes, there are some who claim to be Christians who may be treating homosexuals wrong, but that's not Biblical Christianity.
 
coemgen said:


We've gone over this before though. Christians who believe homosexuality is a sin don't see it as something natural, therefore, they're not against it maliciously or in an attempt to discriminate, they're simply looking out for the best interest of that person as they would with any of us because we all sin. So, therefore, "hating the sin, loving the sinner" is perfectly fine.

Yes, there are some who claim to be Christians who may be treating homosexuals wrong, but that's not Biblical Christianity.

And there were those who believe mix race marriage is a sin. And quote bible verses to support their belief.

And they will tell you they are not malicious.

And I do not make allowance for them either.


There is a lot more in the Bible about divorce than there is about man lying with man.


You say not "an attempt to discriminate"
can you honestly say it does not lead to descrimination?


I don't think it is natural for me to marry someone 3 times my body weight or 3 times difference in age from me.

But if I did this you would not call it a sin.

"simply looking out for the best interest of that person" based on that, I might kidnap these people and have them deprogramed (just kidding)



"hating the sin, loving the sinner" is perfectly fine

hating is never fine

hate is poison
 
coemgen said:
Because you are maintaining that they can simultaneously be good people worthy of love while at the same time knowingly commiting a sin that has to be corrected - getting them to stop sinning is not loving them, it is harming them.
 
martha said:


Horseshit. Quote me the verse where Jesus says it's ok to hate anything.

Go ahead and look. I'll wait.

Maybe Christ didn't say the word hate, but the OT tells us God hates sin.
Deuteronomy 12:31 says "You must not worship the LORD your God in their way, because in worshiping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the LORD hates. They even burn their sons and daughters in the fire as sacrifices to their gods."
Deuteronomy 16:22 says "and do not erect a sacred stone, for these the Lord your God hates."

Malachi 2:16 says "I hate divorce," says the LORD God of Israel, "and I hate a man's covering himself with violence as well as with his garment," says the LORD Almighty. So guard yourself in your spirit, and do not break faith.
 
A_Wanderer said:
Because you are maintaining that they can simultaneously be good people worthy of love while at the same time knowingly commiting a sin that has to be corrected - getting them to stop sinning is not loving them, it is harming them.

That doesn't make sense though. I know Christians who struggle with certain sins. Porn would be one. That doesn't mean I can't lovingly be concerned for them and try to get them out of it. Again, consider the perspective where many Biblically minded Christians are coming from. If they're wrong, and homosexuality is natural, then at best they're ignorant. They're not hateful though.
 
What a bastard - and since Christians are monotheists I don't think changing the message half way through wipes away earlier words and deeds.
 
A_Wanderer said:
What a bastard - and since Christians are monotheists I don't think changing the message half way through wipes away earlier words and deeds.

Now you're name calling?

Where did the message change half way through. You've lost me.
 
Name calling God, who goes from a genocidal divinity to the embodiment of good between the OT and NT; I wouldn't buy it.
 
The nature of God isn't easy to understand, but it is. It's the same God in the two testaments. The people in the OT you're referring to were the most detestable of sinners who were considered evil. He's the same God who sent Christ to do the dirty work for us — die for our sins — and then allows us to overcome our sins, or be forgiven, through that sacrifice. Sounds like a loving God to me. Also, keep in mind, Christ spoke more about judgement than anyone.
 
It seems like a being that is willing to run a campaign of genocide to ensure it's interests are seen to and then after the fact bind the rest of humanity in servitude with a blood debt.
 
A_Wanderer said:
It seems like a being that is willing to run a campaign of genocide to ensure it's interests are seen to and then after the fact bind the rest of humanity in servitude with a blood debt.

I can see how you see it that way, but it's not exactly like that. First of all, God's interest is us. He doesn't need us for anything, but he created us out of love. It's like anything that's created.
Secondly, Christ's work on the cross was done out of grace. All that we have to do is accept that he did it. He requires nothing more, and then, it's up to us to believe in it anyway.
 
If his interest is in "us" then why did he want some of "us" to kill others of "us" to ensure that a monotheistic philosophy could survive - hypothetically if these myths happened - when the Israelites wipe out those other tribes living in Canaan. Wouldn't a few showy miracles have shown infidels the way?
 
Ok, before we go too far in questioning the character of God(the judeo-christian version), why don't we try to see it from God's perspective. Try to pretend that you are a great creator who has created beings that can think, reason and love others. Pretend that your desire was for them to treat each other with respect, honor and kindness. Pretend that your desire was to interact with them. But, like a science experiment gone horribly wrong, they turned away from you. They spit in your face, disobeyed the laws you had set up to protect them, and appeared to get joy in harming others.
Hoping to get them to turn back to you and your ways, you disciplined them like a father does to a child. When they still didn't listen, you punished them...trying to get their attention. Finally, you realized that your going to have to kneel down with them, see things through their eyes. To me...this is the progression of God's relationship with man that I see in the OT to New Testament.

Also, God didn't just try to get Israel's attention. Jonah is written to the Ninevites...and two other OT books focus on Ninevah, a land that was not populated by Israelites...
 
coemgen said:
Maybe Christ didn't say the word hate, but the OT tells us God hates sin.

Yeah, so maybe He didn't. :tsk:

What spiritual gymnastics Christians are capable of when they want to feel good about hating and discriminating in the name of Jesus.

How convenient that the OT allows you to hate (just like God!) and essentially disregard Jesus when you get uncomfortable with someone's different sexuality.

As a follow-up, tell me this, where does God allow you, personally, to do what He does? Oh let's say, for example, hate?
 
Er...the key word is "try". These suppositions are just based on my understanding of the OT and NT....still, sometimes playing "let's pretend" can help you understand what it looks like from another's shoes.
 
Ok...this is ridiculous. Jesus is a person who is in the New Testament. Many times within the NT, Jesus is said to speak of judgment. I don't know what picture of Jesus that you have, but if you have one that just says that everyone can believe what they want to and that all religions are equal...then it isn't one based upon the four gospels.
 
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