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Old 06-05-2007, 08:21 PM   #226
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My hope is that he is there
and I will be reunited with my departed loved ones.

But I don't dwell on it
or count on it.

All that would do
is rob me of living life in the here and now, sharing with my loved ones and others.
How though? I don't understand how it would rob you of life in the here and now and not let you share life with your loved ones.
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Old 06-05-2007, 08:23 PM   #227
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Question for everyone:

If God exists, do you think all living forms - humans, animals, plants, are equal to God or not?

Another question is for believers, if you believe that God did created the world and such, who created God?
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Old 06-05-2007, 08:23 PM   #228
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Originally posted by Ormus

In short, those who fixate on that verse in Romans 1 is completely missing the message of this epistle, and has nothing to do with modern homosexuality.

You rightfully understand the nuance with Paul's verse that forbids women to instruct over men. Where conservative Christianity's prejudices bear its ugly head is in its steadfast refusal to understand the specific circumstances and nuance behind the supposedly anti-gay passages. They are, both in the OT and NT, condemnations of archaic sexual practices, either in terms of abusive pederasty or idolatrous pagan temple orgies--both of which were completely devoid of any love or meaningful affection. As such, any insistence that the Bible condemns "homosexuality," as understood in a modern context, is completely incorrect.

In many ways, this brings me back to "scientific Thomism," as this is the basis upon which the Roman Catholic Church condemns modern homosexuality, not the Bible. Vatican officials have expressed this openly in the past, and, as such, that's why a homophobic religion like Catholicism has not shied away from modern Biblical scholarship. I find it very unfortunate that the Vatican insists on clinging to this pseudoscience, rather than relying on the spirit of philosophical Thomism to accept the advances of modern science in its entirety.

Unfortunately, as we have seen throughout history, many ancient institutions are "tradition-stubborn." And, equally unfortunately, most conservative Protestants are "tradition-stubborn" on the issue of their Biblical translations, which are riddled with mistranslations.

As such, as I've stated before, "Biblically-based Christians" cannot use the Bible to condemn homosexuality, if they interpret the Bible correctly. This also solves your logic struggle, as well, as condemnations of abusive or idolatrous pagan sexual practices are fully in keeping with "love God and love one another."
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Old 06-05-2007, 08:29 PM   #229
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Quote:
Originally posted by butter7
Question for everyone:

If God exists, do you think all living forms - humans, animals, plants, are equal to God or not?

Another question is for believers, if you believe that God did created the world and such, who created God?
Great questions, butter7.

I don't think humans, animals and plants are equal to God. If that were true, they'd all be a God. I think we should respect and take care of all aspects of God's creation though for their well-being and to show honor to God, too.

The Bible teaches that God has no beginning and end. Of course, that's hard for our human minds to understand because everything has a beginning and end. However, this is God who exists outside the natural world and confines of time. If God is, in fact, God, it makes sense. (to me at least)
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Old 06-05-2007, 08:44 PM   #230
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Melon, your patience is extraordinary.
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Old 06-05-2007, 08:45 PM   #231
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Quote:
Originally posted by coemgen


Great questions, butter7.

I don't think humans, animals and plants are equal to God. If that were true, they'd all be a God. I think we should respect and take care of all aspects of God's creation though for their well-being and to show honor to God, too.

The Bible teaches that God has no beginning and end. Of course, that's hard for our human minds to understand because everything has a beginning and end. However, this is God who exists outside the natural world and confines of time. If God is, in fact, God, it makes sense. (to me at least)
The bible explaination does make sense, as long as people follow the bible logics. However, I had loads of questions for this religion that I don't have for others. Because, for me, sometimes the logics are very tricky. For example...

For a believer, how do you view the gods that people in other religions worship? Are they true, or are they false? I mean, if the afterlife does exist, are these people going to hell for worship a wrong God or something the bible could say it's evil?

If the answer is yes, then this religions in it's nature, segregate people by religions. But if the answer is no, well, it's not what the bible said, as far as I know...

So what is the right answer?
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Old 06-05-2007, 08:46 PM   #232
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Thanks, Ormus!
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Old 06-06-2007, 01:17 AM   #233
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Quote:
Originally posted by butter7


The bible explaination does make sense, as long as people follow the bible logics. However, I had loads of questions for this religion that I don't have for others. Because, for me, sometimes the logics are very tricky. For example...

For a believer, how do you view the gods that people in other religions worship? Are they true, or are they false? I mean, if the afterlife does exist, are these people going to hell for worship a wrong God or something the bible could say it's evil?

If the answer is yes, then this religions in it's nature, segregate people by religions. But if the answer is no, well, it's not what the bible said, as far as I know...

So what is the right answer?
That's another great question. I'm not sure I can fully answer it as well as others, but I'd have to say you have to start with the understanding that God is just. Justice is at the core of who he is, along with love. Then you have to consider that God knows our hearts -- each of us. He knows our desires, our struggles, our pains, our dark sides. He also knows if we're truly seeking him, ignoring or avoiding him, or if we just don't care. I would have to think he takes all of this into consideration. Then, he comes down in enemy occupied territory and down to our level, and becomes one of us. He lives the life we live, but lives it right or in a "righteous" way. He doesn't sin, and he can only do this because he's fully God and fully man. He lives a perfect life, makes claims to be the Son of God and is sentenced to death for blasphemy. Funny how the religious leaders of the day killed the savior they were looking for -- he just didn't fit their idea of the savior. So the perfect life comes to an end . . . and then rises again. Death -- the result of sin -- is conquered. And it's done so by a being who lived the perfect life -- this is why he's called the Lamb of God. In the olden days, a "spotless" lamb was slottered to atone for one's sin. Blood had to be spilled since death was the price. Christ became God's spotless lamb, whose blood wasn't spilled for his sins, because he is holy and can't sin, but for our's. Before he died, Christ said "I am the way, the truth and the life. Nobody gets to the Father but by me." Now if you think about it, if God came down here and did what he did in the person of Christ, died this brutal death and then conquered death that he would just allow us to worship another God or allow us to take another way to him or to heaven? Being a just God, and considering the weight of his actions in an attempt to reach out to us and provide us a way to beat sin and death ourselves, I don't think he would. Now, is the person who doesn't worship God through Christ going to hell. The common question is what about the person living in the jungles who's never heard of Christ? The answer is I don't know. I can't know. None of us really can. However, given God's track record, he's doing everything he can to reach them, too. One way is he calls Christians to spread the Gospel to the ends of the earth. Where we fail to do this, I have to believe he still reaches their heart in some way, meets them where they're at like the rest of us and is just and fair in his judgement.

I know that's a long answer, but it's a big, important topic too.
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Old 06-06-2007, 01:29 AM   #234
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Melon/Ormus, do you have any recommended reading on this subject (Paul, interpretations of scripture seeming to but not actually condemning homosexuality, how it doesn't line up with the idea of modern homosexuality, etc.)?
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Old 06-06-2007, 02:08 AM   #235
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Quote:
Originally posted by coemgen


That's another great question. I'm not sure I can fully answer it as well as others, but I'd have to say you have to start with the understanding that God is just. Justice is at the core of who he is, along with love. Then you have to consider that God knows our hearts -- each of us. He knows our desires, our struggles, our pains, our dark sides. He also knows if we're truly seeking him, ignoring or avoiding him, or if we just don't care. I would have to think he takes all of this into consideration. Then, he comes down in enemy occupied territory and down to our level, and becomes one of us. He lives the life we live, but lives it right or in a "righteous" way. He doesn't sin, and he can only do this because he's fully God and fully man. He lives a perfect life, makes claims to be the Son of God and is sentenced to death for blasphemy. Funny how the religious leaders of the day killed the savior they were looking for -- he just didn't fit their idea of the savior. So the perfect life comes to an end . . . and then rises again. Death -- the result of sin -- is conquered. And it's done so by a being who lived the perfect life -- this is why he's called the Lamb of God. In the olden days, a "spotless" lamb was slottered to atone for one's sin. Blood had to be spilled since death was the price. Christ became God's spotless lamb, whose blood wasn't spilled for his sins, because he is holy and can't sin, but for our's. Before he died, Christ said "I am the way, the truth and the life. Nobody gets to the Father but by me." Now if you think about it, if God came down here and did what he did in the person of Christ, died this brutal death and then conquered death that he would just allow us to worship another God or allow us to take another way to him or to heaven? Being a just God, and considering the weight of his actions in an attempt to reach out to us and provide us a way to beat sin and death ourselves, I don't think he would. Now, is the person who doesn't worship God through Christ going to hell. The common question is what about the person living in the jungles who's never heard of Christ? The answer is I don't know. I can't know. None of us really can. However, given God's track record, he's doing everything he can to reach them, too. One way is he calls Christians to spread the Gospel to the ends of the earth. Where we fail to do this, I have to believe he still reaches their heart in some way, meets them where they're at like the rest of us and is just and fair in his judgement.

I know that's a long answer, but it's a big, important topic too.
thank you coemgen for your reply.

So I guess according to your answer, the qeustion is yes, then. christianity does segregate people by their religions believes. The only one who does not, is God. But for ordinary people, they do, because they have to.

What amazed me is that similar explainations were provided by people from other religions to me, when I asked the believers. It's interesting to know all of these because I basically come from a culture background that believes all the gods are the same, all living things, human, animal, plants are all equal to gods, therefore religion itself has no actual meaning at all.

It's indeed a very interesting discussion topic.
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Old 06-06-2007, 02:08 AM   #236
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If God is how you say he is, disagreeing with homosexuality...
then he is a God that I will not follow.

I will stand by that statement until the day I stand before God at the gates of heaven. IF God turns away a gay person I will turn away and turn my back to the God I once believed in.

And I'm not a homosexual.
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Old 06-06-2007, 06:35 AM   #237
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Quote:
Originally posted by absintheminded
If God is how you say he is, disagreeing with homosexuality...
then he is a God that I will not follow.

I will stand by that statement until the day I stand before God at the gates of heaven. IF God turns away a gay person I will turn away and turn my back to the God I once believed in.

And I'm not a homosexual.
Based on Ormus' post, it seems that there's a good argument to say that homosexuality is not condemned by God.
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Old 06-06-2007, 08:57 AM   #238
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Quote:
Originally posted by AttnKleinkind
Melon/Ormus, do you have any recommended reading on this subject (Paul, interpretations of scripture seeming to but not actually condemning homosexuality, how it doesn't line up with the idea of modern homosexuality, etc.)?
I don't have any specific texts that I can recommend. Much of this is the end result of years of theological self-study from sources that seem too numerous to count.

Part of the problem is that this is an emerging study in theology, and a lot of the more visible and media-friendly historians in this study still make the errors of trying to apply a modern relevance to archaic practices or are so "liberal" in their Christianity that they get academically sloppy and start glossing over certain verses with a sweeping "the OT was fulfilled by Christ, so it doesn't matter anymore."

A lot of it ends up boiling down to the linguistic evidence, an understanding of the ancient history and customs of the Romans, Greeks, Persians, and various Semitic tribes that leave a considerable mark on the worldview of Israel, an understanding of the evolution of how the Bible has been translated over the centuries, and how Christianity (Roman Catholicism, in particular) has evolved historically and the various philosophies involved.

Anyway, I'll do some thinking on your request here, and if anything comes to mind, I'll make sure to let you know.
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Old 06-06-2007, 09:24 AM   #239
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Quote:
Originally posted by absintheminded
IF God turns away a gay person I will turn away and turn my back to the God I once believed in.

it's a good idea to not judge God by His most ardent followers.
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Old 06-06-2007, 02:04 PM   #240
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Quote:
Originally posted by butter7


thank you coemgen for your reply.

So I guess according to your answer, the qeustion is yes, then. christianity does segregate people by their religions believes. The only one who does not, is God. But for ordinary people, they do, because they have to.

What amazed me is that similar explainations were provided by people from other religions to me, when I asked the believers. It's interesting to know all of these because I basically come from a culture background that believes all the gods are the same, all living things, human, animal, plants are all equal to gods, therefore religion itself has no actual meaning at all.

It's indeed a very interesting discussion topic.
Yes, all religions are very different. To say they all lead to "the same god" would be a false statement. Some believe in many Gods. Some don't believe in a God. Some don't believe you can interact personally with God. Then there's Christ, who is God incarnate. That's Christianity. It is interesting stuff though. And as far as God claiming only one way, it depends on who you talk to.
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