"My god is true, your god is false"

[DrTeeth]

so atheists are living in hell?

And why can't we just choose after death if we want to go on in the presence of God or not?

 

[Irvine511]

And why can't we just choose after death if we want to go on in the presence of God or not?

were we with god before we were born? do we go back to what we were before we were born? what were we before we were born?

i don't remember anything particularly terrible about that, whether with God or not.

seems okay.

 

[diamond]

were we with god before we were born? do we go back to what we were before we were born?
.

Yes, we were w/God, and very happy.

We came to earth to learn, and can return to God depending on what we do with our lives here.

And yes it's biblical and Mormonical , and all true.


dbs

 

[diamond]

And why can't we just choose after death if we want to go on in the presence of God or not?

No, not necessarily.

 

[diamond]

And why can't we just choose after death if we want to go on in the presence of God or not?

Some of us can depending on what we chose to do in this life w the inner light that God gave us.


dbs

 

[Irvine511]

Yes, we were w/God, and very happy.

says who?

 

[martha]

Mormonical

This may be my new favorite word.

 

[BEAL]

says who?

Says the bible of course.

If someone were to write a book about my teachings and sayings (the ones about being important and being a savior), I would sure as hell hope they wouldn't wait 40 some years to get it to print.

 

[deep]

We can't even agree on what Lee Harvey Oswald did or did not do, or even who he really was.

And there are written transcripts, film, pictures and people alive today that interacted with him.

We seem to have two sides with very strong feelings that believe he did do something or he did not do something.

Reasonable people on each side are certain they are right.

 

[diamond]

says who?

The Bible and volumes of Mormon scripture.
Here's the Biblical verses:

OT-

Job 38:7
When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Jer 1:5

Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations. (KJV)


NT-

John 17 4-5

4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.



dbs

 

[phillyfan26]

because it's as plain as day. read it for yourself. not all of the Bible has to be taken for a deeper meaning. a lot of it is very easy to undestand and is written in black and white language.

Did you read Ormus' post? Cause that pretty much disproves taking the Bible black-and-white in that case.

Taking anything as black-and-white is a big risk. Especially something not written by God, that claims to be His word.

 

[BVS]

The Bible and volumes of Mormon scripture.
Here's the Biblical verses:

OT-

Job 38:7
When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Jer 1:5

Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations. (KJV)


NT-

John 17 4-5

4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.



dbs

Those are very poetic verses don't you think? Could make a pretty song...

The thing is with poetry it can be interpreted in so many ways.

 

[diamond]

I appreciate the style, however the content I take literally.

dbs

 

[coemgen]

Did you read Ormus' post? Cause that pretty much disproves taking the Bible black-and-white in that case.

Taking anything as black-and-white is a big risk. Especially something not written by God, that claims to be His word.

I didn't say all of it was black and white, but a lot of it is. The New Testament is full of letters Paul and others wrote to churches and others. They're straight forward -- you just have to study the context they were written in and know the audience, but they're not abstract.

And yes, it's God's word, but it's written by humans. You're right. It's God's word because it's inspired by God, not because he grabbed a pen and started writing.

 

[coemgen]

Yes, we were w/God, and very happy.

We came to earth to learn, and can return to God depending on what we do with our lives here.

And yes it's biblical and Mormonical , and all true.


dbs

Mormonical = the opposite of what the Bible says.

The Bible says we can return to God depending on our response to God's grace, not what we do with our lives.

Interesting.

 

[martha]

coemgen, were you traumatized by a Mormon guy on a bike once or something?

 

[hardyharhar]

This may be my new favorite word.

Mormonical

 

[coemgen]

Coemgen: you know as well as i do that everything Christ "said" is secondhand information, written decades and decades after it was said. if not longer.

It may have been decades after, but that pales in comparison to other "reliable biographies" of the time or even later. Plus, it was written within the generation of those who lived with Christ -- not in the next generation like many other historical figures. If somebody got something wrong, it would've been debated and changed. It also was copied numerous times to spread the Gospel, and this preserved the original text. Many other texts of this era and even later had far, far less first copies circulating.

The Gospels stand out in many regards when it comes to the effort put into them to get them out quickly and to as many people as possible. Yeah they weren't written for decades, but they were written before the next generation of people needed them.

as for best student in class -- what i'm saying is that for the fundamentalist, there is only one moment where one has clarity and consciousness, and that is at the point where one chooses to believe. and then, after that, the mind, heart, and soul are put in the service of learning the letter of the thing, ignoring the spirit, and viewing all that happens in life thorugh this prism.

There may be people out there like this, but I don't think it's right. You have to approach the Bible with humility. I may discuss things with certainty as far as my understanding of the Bible, but I'm always open to other possible interpretations or additional context to better arrive at the truth of the text.

you believe in a loving God who controls all things on earth? and then, one day, a tsunami comes along and kills 250,000+ people, many of them children. what do you do? do you re-evaluate? do you struggle? do you despair?

no! for it is all God's will! you can't possibly understand why, so rejoice! praise him! for he knows better than you why!

there is a dearly departed poster who, in my view, was clearly the best student in class when it came to things like this. his intellect was tremendous, and his knowledge of scripture impressive.

but i never got a sense of consciousness or genuine self-awareness or struggle or even the glimmer of a moment where what he saw conflicted in some way with what he read in the Bible.

got a question about the Bible? look to the Bible for the answer.

Well, yes, the Bible is the only text Christians have in understanding God, so of course we go to it for answers. But you're right, you can't just go to it for answers about itself. It's good to have a historical and cultural understanding about the people who wrote it and the people they wrote to and about. A classic example is the part where it says "it's easier for you to fit a camel through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get to heaven." I always thought, "Well, then it's impossible for a rich man to get to heaven, but that doesn't make sense." I later found out there was a gate in Jerusalem or somewhere called "the eye of a needle" that was narrow and extremely difficult to get a camel through -- but it was possible. Now, I heard this from a person whom I have great respect for, but I haven't verified it as fact.

Stuff like a tsunami is very hard to deal with. It doesn't make sense. But yes, I believe God is a loving God and he is in control. At the same time, I believe there's another force out there that goes against him and I know there's free will. Where these three intersect can be blurry at times. I'm not going to get all Pat Robertson on you and pretend I know what's going on. But just because I don't know what's going on doesn't mean there's not a greater being out there who does.

 

[BVS]

I appreciate the style, however the content I take literally.

dbs

You can't, that's my point. Those words say something completely different to me.

 

[coemgen]

coemgen, were you traumatized by a Mormon guy on a bike once or something?

 

[Irvine511]

It may have been decades after, but that pales in comparison to other "reliable biographies" of the time or even later. Plus, it was written within the generation of those who lived with Christ -- not in the next generation like many other historical figures. If somebody got something wrong, it would've been debated and changed. It also was copied numerous times to spread the Gospel, and this preserved the original text. Many other texts of this era and even later had far, far less first copies circulating.

and none of this even approaches the criteria required for a literal, word-for-word understanding.

 

[hardyharhar]

Jesus was a rabble rouser hoping to bring down the corrupt leaders of his time, who were no different than the phony bible thumpers we have leading us now. Just the sort of radical that christians today would be bashing for his blasphemous views.

I hope there is a god and heaven, but I'm pretty sure there isn't.

But I will definitely believe when I see him on video.

 

[diamond]

You can't,

Yes I can.

 

[BVS]

Yes I can.

Sure, if you aren't a thinking man...

 

[diamond]

Mormonical = the opposite of what the Bible says.

The Bible says we can return to God depending on our response to God's grace, not what we do with our lives.

Interesting.

Mormonical = the opposite of what the Bible says.

Not true, and you know it, and I think it scares you Mormons might have something more than your understanding.

The Bible says we can return to God depending on our response to God's grace, not what we do with our lives.

Mormons teach as the Bible teaches a combination of both are needed, Grace and Works.

We don't believe in cheap Grace, while a lot "mainline Christianity" promotes this concept, attempting to throw out the teachings of James.:

James 2:1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.
James 2:2 For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment;
James 2:3 And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool:
James 2:4 Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts?
James 2:5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?
James 2:6 But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats?
James 2:7 Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called?
James 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
James 2:9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
James 2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
James 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
James 2:13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.
James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
James 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
James 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
James 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
James 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
James 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

coemgen, were you traumatized by a Mormon guy on a bike once or something?

Martha,

I think comeg is infuriated with the LDS Church for what ever reason.
However, I appreciate from what paradigm he deals from and love him unconditionally, but I do not love what he he has to say about my Church and other churches that don't align with his beliefs.

dbs

 

[hardyharhar]

I think South Park summed all this up pretty well. Mormon beliefs are pretty nutty, but hey, they're happy. So, as the little Mormon kid says to Stan, "Suck my balls". And walks away.

 

[diamond]

hardy
har
har

 

[phillyfan26]

And yes, it's God's word, but it's written by humans. You're right. It's God's word because it's inspired by God, not because he grabbed a pen and started writing.

Laughable statement. The whole point of saying it's written by humans is that it thus is not 100% reliable. How do you know political bias isn't in there? In fact, it's almost a guarantee there is. Which is why it's not all black-and-white. Which is why it's not all to be trusted.

 

[popsadie]

You know...knowledge isn't always objective. I can''t Prove God's existence in a scientific way, but it is real to me. I witnessed a healing of a woman(who is also my friend) with severe emphysema who just eight days earlier was blue on the lips and needed to carry around oxygen. Two days after being prayed for by prisoners she was ministering to on Christmas Day(she is the wife of my pastor), she was leading worship again without any breathing tubes at my church. I go to a pretty small church and know the woman well. I don't know why she was healed and others have not been, but in my mind...I know it was the God we prayed to that healed her.

 

[Smallville]

You know...knowledge isn't always objective. I can''t Prove God's existence in a scientific way, but it is real to me. I witnessed a healing of a woman(who is also my friend) with severe emphysema who just eight days earlier was blue on the lips and needed to carry around oxygen. Two days after being prayed for by prisoners she was ministering to on Christmas Day(she is the wife of my pastor), she was leading worship again without any breathing tubes at my church. I go to a pretty small church and know the woman well. I don't know why she was healed and others have not been, but in my mind...I know it was the God we prayed to that healed her.

That's an awesome witness, thank you.