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Old 02-28-2005, 10:10 PM   #16
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But I wish some of these people who have no problem with "raising" children in a same-sex union just stop and think about the long-term consequences of how that child will develop. Little kids won't know any better, but what happens when they grow up, and set out on their own? Do you seriously think that they will be just as comfortable in the world as you are? Do you think that if they want to marry "traditionally", that they 'll just be able to hop, skip and jump into "regular" life? That they can say,
If you guys want to marry like my 'parents' did, that's fine, but me, I'll marry the opposite sex and have kids biologically?" You assme that children brought up in these circumsyances will be able to adjust to the world around them with little thought. It's the same logic that older parents made in assuming that divorce has no long-term effect on kids, and they get over it. Well, coming from this 36 yr old veteran of my mom's 3 marriages, that's a load of crap. Why are so many Gen Xer's going into teaching" To not live thier lives the way their parents did....to be able to give thier children the time and care their parents never gave them. To not be like their parents.

Let me tell you something: If my don or daughter said they were gay, I would not "cast them out" as so many right-wingers would. They are my child, and I support them whatever they do. I can't change it, after all. If they walked up to me with another of the same sex and said, "this is my wife," or whatever, I'd smile. They'd be welcome in my house, just the same as always. But if they told me they were going to be bringing a child into their house and raising it as if they were naturla parents, I'd draw the line. I would weep, I'd rage, I'd tear out my hair, I'd abase myself before God for having to commit an act of seperation, but I would have to tell them that that I could not accept. I would not turn them away, I'd merely tell them that they couldn't enter my house with that child. I could not be a "grandma" in that circumstance. There'd be no Scripture, not finger-pointing, no moral claptrap. I'd slump on the couch and weep and wail, but I would have to stand firm. Simply beucase I believe, deep down in my heart, that it is the wrong way for a child to be brought up, and would cause that child too many problems. As I said before: this whole "gay family" thing is in its infancy. 20 yrs from now, let's see how these kids turn out.

I am sorry if this offends you. And it is not an easy thing to say. But CAN'T you understand that some of us, just because we express concerns of any sort, are NOT homophobes? You rush to make assumptions based on that. If the scenario I described above occurred, I'd not cast them out. I find the idea of cutting off contact with anybody a terrible thing. I;d carry on as if things were normal, but for that thing. I'd call them, talk with them, love them, we'd go on as if nothing happened, and they were my child and my friend. They just could not enter my roof as a triumvirate. They should take the hint and not press the issue, any more than they wouldn't get drunk under my roof.
You say you care about the child of a homosexual couple so much, but then you go and proudly state that you "would tell them that they couldn't enter my house with that child." That's really showing "that child" how much you care about him or her. You disagree with homosexuals raising a child, because you say it's bad for the child, but then you go and call it "that child" and would forbid your son/daughter, his/her partner, and "that child" in your house? So let be get this...you disagree with the parents but you take out your anger on "that child"? Pardon me, but what the hell good does that do?
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Old 02-28-2005, 10:23 PM   #17
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Originally posted by Teta040
2) Forbidding gays to marry does NOT make them "second class citizens." They can marry like so many traditional couples do: by a Justice of the Peace. My mom married 3 times and never had a chruch wedding. I don't consider myself a bastard (in the old sense of the term.) If someone passed a law forbidding this, I'd protest that too. Are people who marry in non-religious weddings S'econd class"? You decide.

No. Homosexual couples are NOT permitted to be married by a Justice of the Peace (except in MA, I guess). And if you paid any attention to the US elections in Nov. (I'm assuming from some of your comments that you are in the US), you would know that many states are passing laws expressly prohibiting civil marriages as well as any type of civil unions for homosexuals.

I don't care what churches do in regard to any marriages, their sanction means nothing to me, but I think homosexual couples should be able to marry in civil ceremonies (ie., by a JP).
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Old 02-28-2005, 10:24 PM   #18
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One other thought Teta040....

It appears to me from your comments that your heterosexual mom had a worse impact on you than my homosexual dad did on me. Just something for you to think about....
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Old 03-01-2005, 03:00 AM   #19
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Originally posted by Teta040
[B]But I wish some of these people who have no problem with "raising" children in a same-sex union just stop and think about the long-term consequences of how that child will develop. Little kids won't know any better, but what happens when they grow up, and set out on their own?
Well, my two Aunts have been together for almost 30 years. My parents combined have been through 10 marriages. My cousin, raised by my two aunts, is married. He has a beautiful wife. He apparently did not turn out gay. He apparently, since being raised by gay people, did not change his genetic code, contrary to popular belief.

[Q] Do you seriously think that they will be just as comfortable in the world as you are?[/Q]

My cousin played football, basebal soccer. Had friends and firlfriends. Apparently, graduated High School and College and has a pretty damn successful career.

[Q]Do you think that if they want to marry "traditionally", that they 'll just be able to hop, skip and jump into "regular" life?[/Q]

Yes, he apparently was able to without the devastation of my so called regular life filled with divorce.

[Q]That they can say, If you guys want to marry like my 'parents' did, that's fine, but me, I'll marry the opposite sex and have kids biologically?" [/Q]

Apparently, my aunts were able to say theis without getting upset that their straight son married, oh the horror, a woman.

[Q]You assme that children brought up in these circumsyances will be able to adjust to the world around them with little thought. It's the same logic that older parents made in assuming that divorce has no long-term effect on kids, and they get over it. Well, coming from this 36 yr old veteran of my mom's 3 marriages, that's a load of crap. Why are so many Gen Xer's going into teaching" To not live thier lives the way their parents did....to be able to give thier children the time and care their parents never gave them. To not be like their parents. [/Q]

Just curious, how many children do you know raised by Gay people? I am not making assumptions, since my Aunts have provided for me a role model for relationships. A healthy one as opposed to my parents 10 marriages. My cousin turned out pretty darn well and his marriage is approaching 10 years.
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Old 03-01-2005, 04:16 AM   #20
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If a penis and a vagina is all that's necessary to be "good parents,"
Right, not required to be 'good parents' but definitely required to be parents.

The only thing that bothers me about this thread, is that this Teta040 dares to express is opinion, and is immediately labeled as a homophobe and his responses are classified as sh*t.

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Old 03-01-2005, 04:55 AM   #21
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Originally posted by MadelynIris


The only thing that bothers me about this thread, is that this Teta040 dares to express is opinion, and is immediately labeled as a homophobe and his responses are classified as sh*t.

What if the person fought the same exact argument for interratial couples?

Would you be so quick to defend it as just expressing an opinion and be upset if anyone called them a racist?
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Old 03-01-2005, 08:37 AM   #22
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Right, not required to be 'good parents' but definitely required to be parents.
Correction: definitely required to be biological parents. But since heteros can't seem to control their urges (you know, "hormones" and all), there seem to be plenty of excess children available for adoption.

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Old 03-01-2005, 08:49 AM   #23
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Originally posted by MadelynIris

The only thing that bothers me about this thread, is that this Teta040 dares to express is opinion, and is immediately labeled as a homophobe and his responses are classified as sh*t.


oh please.

Teta040 couldn't defend his position when challenged by Melon and Dread. there was no labeling going on, simply a refutation of a poorly reasoned argument. you can have whatever belief you want, but when you argue for your beliefs, the argument is then going to be challenged. in each and every post, Melon and Dread resopnded to specific assertions posted by Teta, and each and every time, Teta was defeated. simple as that.

it strikes me as amazing when people cry victim when they are simply outgunned by more logically sound arguments.

very simply: there is no evidence, whatsoever, that children are harmed by having gay parents. none. Teta's positon is one of naivete, if not ignorance.

and besides, wouldn't you want a child with gay parents than bouncing from foster home to foster home?

the anti-gay-adoption thing drives me absolutely insane with rage, sometimes. as Melon pointed out, heteros have absolutely NO moral authority when it comes to being even remotely passable parents, and most gay people who want to adopt have to jump through so many hoops and circumvent so many obstacles that you know they care, deeply.
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Old 03-01-2005, 09:10 AM   #24
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Originally posted by Dreadsox
There are some churches in Africa that are refusing AIDS money from the American Church because of the stances above.
That's mature.

I don't understand some people.

Quote:
Originally posted by melon
Correction: definitely required to be biological parents.
Thank you.

I've heard stories from kids that I went to school with, and stories from kids on the other boards I go to and stuff, in which they grew up in homes with heterosexuals for parents. And you know what? Those "parents" are quite sorry excuses for being such. They may have a penis/vagina combo, but they're still downright pathetic parents...they say the cruelest things to their kids (seriously, if my parents ever dared say some of the things to me that these kids' parents have said to them, I'd never want to speak to my parents again), they leave them alone for hours, even days, on end, some kids have even told stories of getting out of abusive homes and stuff.

And I've heard stories of kids who live in homosexual parent households and who have turned out just fine...they haven't "turned gay", they're well-adjusted, they still had talks with their parents about sex and stuff (just because a parent is in love with someone of the same gender doesn't mean that they can't still teach their child about sex the way that a heterosexual would...that's a rather strange assumption to be making, to think they'd have to explain things differently or something).

And on the flip side, there's heterosexuals who are great parents, and there's homosexuals out there who are lousy excuses for parents. The bottom line is this: your sexual orientation holds NO relevance to how good a parent you'll be. Not one iota of relevance. As long as the parents love their child/children, are willing to raise them and clothe them and feed them and take care of them and protect them and all that good stuff, I don't see why anybody should give a damn about whether or not those parents are straight or gay.

People talk about a problem in which the kids can be teased for having gay parents...well, ya know what? Kids can be teased for anything-wearing glasses, being bookworms, not being from a rich family (that was what I got teased about most often in school...and I have heterosexual parents), the list goes on and on. And besides that, that's still not the fault of the gay parents-no, that's the fault of the kids doing the teasing, and the parents of those kids, who obviously haven't taught their children manners. And it's been proven that being around people of one orientation will not make you more likely to be that orientation yourself, so that's not an issue (and even so, who really cares if they do?). And so on and so forth. So I really don't understand why people care so much. Especially when you consider there are so many kids out there who need a good home and everything.

Meh. Just my views and whatnot.

Angela
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Old 03-01-2005, 10:52 AM   #25
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Most major denominations have been battling these issues for years. I see it happening as well in the Presbyterian Church. The issues dividing the denominations go well beyond the homosexual issue; centering on core issues, such as the divinity of Christ and the inerrancy of Scripture. These issues have divided liberal and conservative Christianity for decades.
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Old 03-01-2005, 11:41 AM   #26
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Old 03-01-2005, 12:40 PM   #27
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I don't know why, but i was kind of encouraged that at least Teta040's opposition to same-sex marriage/kid-adoptions isn't based on religious grounds. Mind you, it's not really based on sound logic either...more of a socio-psychological viewpoint. To many, this "debate" is a no-brainer based in equality of rights, and to many others it seems to be a very major psychological hurdle...no matter how many sound, logical arguments are presented (thank god for Dread and Melon), some people can't seem to escape either their politics or, it seems, how they've always thought.

But i'm encouraged, at least being here in Canada, that 10 or 15 years from now, a high majority of people who don't currently support same-sex rights will look back and say "Geez, what the fuck was the big deal?"

[I'm still blown away by all that Catholic Church same-sex marriage blessing rites Dread posted in another thread. I work for a Catholic health care provider and nobody i worked with knew all that stuff. Thanks again, Dread.]
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Old 03-01-2005, 01:01 PM   #28
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[I'm still blown away by all that Catholic Church same-sex marriage blessing rites Dread posted in another thread. I work for a Catholic health care provider and nobody i worked with knew all that stuff. Thanks again, Dread.]
What thread was that, BTW? I don't remember reading those in here.

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Old 03-01-2005, 01:09 PM   #29
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Old 03-01-2005, 01:10 PM   #30
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Melon, it's the "new ideology of evil" thread...you posted in it, man. Dread cut and pasted all that good stuff starting page 9 (and 10).
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