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Old 12-08-2006, 04:36 PM   #61
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Interesting idea. Who gets Baghdad? Who gets the Gulf? Who gets the oilfields? What about the shared holy places that will now be in one region or another?
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Old 12-08-2006, 04:53 PM   #62
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Originally posted by Vincent Vega
Thing is, Kurds would love to have their own state just in the region menelaos mentioned.

You say, they are free to go meaning they should go away. But they don't want to leave the region they live in.
Thanks god that someone is coming to my words...
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Old 12-08-2006, 04:55 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally posted by Vincent Vega
Thing is, Kurds would love to have their own state just in the region menelaos mentioned.

You say, they are free to go meaning they should go away. But they don't want to leave the region they live in.
If they don't want to leave, then they should learn to live with the fact that they are citizens of those countries. Let's face it, none of the countries they live in wants a kurdish state, they will not allow it, and even if northern iraq breaks away and starts to act as an independent entity, and no one reacts to this through military action (unprobable) it will be a landlocked state with huge problems with all its neighbours. How do they expect to live like that? I mean, just look at Armenia, they are still officially at war with Azerbaijan, no diplomatic relations with Turkey, and Georgia isn't very cooperative to them either. That particular country only survives on the money sent by the Armenian diaspora.

Kurds might have some oil, but thats not worth a dime if they don't have ports or pipelines to send it through.
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Old 12-08-2006, 05:21 PM   #64
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I just said what the Kurds would like to have, not that I think that is realistic.

I think the Kurds in Northern Iraq live on some oil, so they would be in a better position economically than other people that are aiming for independence, e.g. the Basque.
On the other hand, oild won't be there forever, and, as you said and which is very important, there is no access to any harbour without having to cross another country.

Turkey has made it very clear that they wouldn't accept an independent Kurdish state in the north of Iraq, and showed the Americans their willingness to attack such a state.

And you can say what you want, but even today Kurds don't have the same chances as Turks have, and they don't get treated equally, which the EU has pointed out several times.
So now they are finding a solution for Cyprus, and in one of the next years the Turkish government will be confronted with the EU demanding a better and equal treatment for the Kurds.

I'm not for a state Kurdistan, simply because it wouldn't make anything easier for the Kurds, and due to a lack of alternative sources they would be relying on the oil they have. Tourism isn't an option, because the region isn't really attractive for mass tourism, and there isn't really some other resource they could trade with.
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Old 12-08-2006, 05:47 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally posted by Vincent Vega
I just said what the Kurds would like to have, not that I think that is realistic.

I think the Kurds in Northern Iraq live on some oil, so they would be in a better position economically than other people that are aiming for independence, e.g. the Basque.
On the other hand, oild won't be there forever, and, as you said and which is very important, there is no access to any harbour without having to cross another country.

Turkey has made it very clear that they wouldn't accept an independent Kurdish state in the north of Iraq, and showed the Americans their willingness to attack such a state.


And you can say what you want, but even today Kurds don't have the same chances as Turks have, and they don't get treated equally, which the EU has pointed out several times.
So now they are finding a solution for Cyprus, and in one of the next years the Turkish government will be confronted with the EU demanding a better and equal treatment for the Kurds.

I'm not for a state Kurdistan, simply because it wouldn't make anything easier for the Kurds, and due to a lack of alternative sources they would be relying on the oil they have. Tourism isn't an option, because the region isn't really attractive for mass tourism, and there isn't really some other resource they could trade with.
I recognize the fact that Kurds should be treated more equally, there is room for vast improvement on that. They are also citizens of Turkey and deserve the equal treatment. This is in the laws and regulations, but the implementation is rather patchy. But this is a process, things cant just change in a couple of years. There is progress here, but it will be more rapid if EU is more positive and less reprehensive.

Talking about a solution for Cyprus, you might want to check the thread about that, but it's not really.. lets say... happening.
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Old 12-08-2006, 06:28 PM   #66
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I tried to do the Cyprus thing as short as possible because I'm aware of the other thread.
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Old 12-08-2006, 06:48 PM   #67
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Sorry but I couldn't ressist all_i_want, from telling that you again express wishes...The fact is that Kurds are treated little or very like 2nd category citizens, not to say like animals...Of-course it's not your fault -and I wish that there are more people like you in Turkey- but these happen...
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Old 12-08-2006, 06:50 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally posted by Vincent Vega
I tried to do the Cyprus thing as short as possible because I'm aware of the other thread.
In any case, I guess we can all agree that Buttercup's brilliant plan for Iraq, partition, might not be as brilliant as previously propsed, and is in fact a disasterous idea divorced from reality on the ground.

I guess that puts a full stop to this thread.
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Old 12-08-2006, 06:56 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally posted by menelaos
Sorry but I couldn't ressist all_i_want, from telling that you again express wishes...The fact is that Kurds are treated little or very like 2nd category citizens, not to say like animals...Off-course it's not your fault -and I wish that there are more people like you in Turkey- but these happen...
The fact that Kurdish separatists fought a war against the country for 20 years has a lot to do with this. You wouldnt believe how much prejudice and dislike this creates for a whole ethnic group. There are many fences to mend, not only between the state and its citizens in the south east, but also between the people themselves. I believe we are moving in the right direction, albeit slowly, and we will get there eventually. I hope you wouldn't disagree with this.
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Old 12-09-2006, 02:01 AM   #70
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Interesting to contrast the Kurds with another people without a state the Palestinians and the way that various countries treat them.
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Old 12-09-2006, 04:51 AM   #71
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Well palestinians had a state there before Israel. That isnt the case with the Kurds.
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Old 12-09-2006, 06:11 AM   #72
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Mandate Palestine wasn't a Palestinian State.
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Old 12-09-2006, 07:07 AM   #73
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Mandate Palestine wasn't a Palestinian State.
Fair enough, but the UN solution of 1948 envisioned two states, which meant the Palestinians right to have a state there was recognized at the time. Since at the time of the UN resolution the British Mandate had ceased to exist and there was no sovereign power on the ground, the partition was to kick start the two states. This is unlike the situation in Iran, Turkey and Syria, where there is a viable government with sovereign authority in place. Although one could argue that such authority doesn't exist in Iraq..
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Old 12-09-2006, 07:31 AM   #74
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That plan was rejected by the Arabs. It is moot, these states are post-colonial creations, the Kurds were unlucky enough to be straddling oil fields.

Iraqi Kurdistan has had it's own automonous government for over a decade now and can function. None of the percecution inflicted upon the Kurds justifies PKK terrorism in any way shape or form.
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Old 12-09-2006, 09:10 AM   #75
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Quote:
Originally posted by all_i_want


In any case, I guess we can all agree that Buttercup's brilliant plan for Iraq, partition, might not be as brilliant as previously propsed, and is in fact a disasterous idea divorced from reality on the ground.

I guess that puts a full stop to this thread.

Yes, we agreed on this before for several reasons I think
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