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Old 12-06-2006, 12:11 PM   #46
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All_I_Want, I know what I'm talking about. I know the Kurds have been victimized, gassed and attacked in what looks a lot like genocide for years by the Iraqis and the Turks.

So what you're saying is, NOTHING is going to work? Shall we just let them have at it until they all blow each other up?
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Old 12-06-2006, 12:14 PM   #47
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Originally posted by menelaos
off-topic:



In this country 1 year ago one author was accused for offending the "Turkishness" because one fictional character in one of his books said something bad about Turkey...

Also they have invaded in E.U. territories (they hold illegaly 40% of Cyprus island and don't recognize the rest), are responsinble for the Armenian Genocide -wich also don't recognize as a fact and break the relations with countries they do (France)-, have white cells, about 30 prisoners have died during the last years due to hunger strike, don't recognize the right for someone to be Kurd and deny the teaching of his native language in school, and constantly violate the human rights....

have I answered your question..?
If they don't like them, why not just let them out of their country?

And this is not off topic, it all has to do with how partitioning Iraq would or would not work. This is a factor.
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Old 12-06-2006, 12:44 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally posted by Butterscotch


If they don't like them, why not just let them out of their country?

And this is not off topic, it all has to do with how partitioning Iraq would or would not work. This is a factor.
What do you mean let them out of their country? Also, this is not about 'liking' them or not, that just sounds childish. They are also citizens of this country and they are subject to the same laws like the rest of us. You seem to be oblivious to the fact that a Marxist-Leninist Kurdish terrorist organization, PKK, waged a terror campaign against Turkey for over 20 years, starting in 1978, in the name of kurdish independency ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdistan_Workers_Party)

They are responsible for the deaths of over 30,000 people, and they are now operating from within Northern Iraq, under the protection of the kurdish authority there.

Here are some excrepts from the article above:

The Kurdistan Workers Party (Kurdish: Partiya Karkerên Kurdistan or PKK, Turkish: Kürdistan İşçi Partisi), also known as KADEK and Kongra-Gel, is an armed militant group, whose stated aim is to create an independent Kurdish state in a territory (sometimes referred to as Kurdistan) that consists of parts of south-eastern Turkey, north-eastern Iraq, north-eastern Syria and north-western Iran.

The PKK is listed as a terrorist organisation internationally by a number of states and organisations, including the USA and the EU,[1] and Turkey blames it for the death of more than 30,000 people.

At the height of its campaign, the PKK received support from other countries, most notably Syria,[5] but also Greece,[7] Iran,[8] the Soviet Union[9]

The objective was to destabilise Turkish authority through a long, low-intensity confrontation. In addition to skirmishing with Turkish military and police forces and local village guards, the PKK has conducted suicide bombing on government and police installations, as well as at local tourist sites. Kidnapping and assassination against government officials and Kurdish tribal leaders who were named as puppets of the state were performed as well. Widespread sabotages were continued from the first stage. PKK performed kidnapping western tourists, primarily in Istanbul but also at different resorts. PKK has also attacked Turkish diplomatic and commercial facilities across Western Europe.


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Since you seem to oblivious to all this, you'd better do your research and then talk about this.

I don't even know why I have to state this, but anyone who wants to leave is allowed to leave Turkey. If anyone wants to live in Northern Iraq instead of Turkey, they are welcome to move there. Since people are not doing that, maybe they do want to stay.

Anyway, it is obvious that partition would only add to the chaos in the region, drawing in Turkey, Syria and Iran into the conflict.
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Old 12-06-2006, 04:03 PM   #49
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all_i_want can you tell me in wich part of Turkey you live..?
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Old 12-06-2006, 04:48 PM   #50
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Originally posted by menelaos
all_i_want can you tell me in wich part of Turkey you live..?
i am from Ankara, but now im studying abroad. In any case, I don't see how that would make any difference in my opinion on not having my country broken apart.
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Old 12-06-2006, 04:56 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally posted by Butterscotch
All_I_Want, I know what I'm talking about. I know the Kurds have been victimized, gassed and attacked in what looks a lot like genocide for years by the Iraqis and the Turks.

So what you're saying is, NOTHING is going to work? Shall we just let them have at it until they all blow each other up?
I am not saying that nothing is going to work. Since partition is not an option, once the US leaves, Iraq will become a satellite state of Iran -thanks for that GWB, btw- and still an uneasy neighbour to Turkey and Syria. During the process of transition, the Americans - or whoever - needs to send in troops to control the violence. Since Americans are doing a bust up job in that, they need to somehow bring in NATO.

The other option is to just leave, and let the history take its course. That would mean the militias and insurgents fighting it out and whoever ends up on the top - probably the Shiites - takes it all.

It is quite obvious by now, though, in any case, that the end result is going to be yet another corrupt, archaic middle eastern state, a 'democracy', awfully similar to that of Iran, perhaps.
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Old 12-06-2006, 06:36 PM   #52
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I don't blame the Turks for not wanting to lose land. Nobody likes to lose land. By the same token, I can see where people are coming from as per the Kurds are concerned. The article points out that they are the world's largest ethnic group that don't have a homeland, and they deserve a homeland. But at whose expense? That's the $64,000 question. Turkey? Syria? Iran? None of these is going to elect to give up land for an independent Kurdistan. This is one reason why regime change in Iraq wasn't such a bright idea. It's created a real can of worms with the situation about Kirkuk and eastern Turkey in play. Those neocons weren't too smart. Donald Rumsfeld may have resigned but the damage he did remains. I really think Iraq is going to be worse off than they were under Saddam, if they aren't already.
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Old 12-06-2006, 07:17 PM   #53
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Just asked...
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Old 12-06-2006, 09:42 PM   #54
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Originally posted by all_i_want


I am not saying that nothing is going to work. Since partition is not an option, once the US leaves, Iraq will become a satellite state of Iran -thanks for that GWB, btw- and still an uneasy neighbour to Turkey and Syria. During the process of transition, the Americans - or whoever - needs to send in troops to control the violence. Since Americans are doing a bust up job in that, they need to somehow bring in NATO.

The other option is to just leave, and let the history take its course. That would mean the militias and insurgents fighting it out and whoever ends up on the top - probably the Shiites - takes it all.

It is quite obvious by now, though, in any case, that the end result is going to be yet another corrupt, archaic middle eastern state, a 'democracy', awfully similar to that of Iran, perhaps.
Iraq will never be Iran. While 60% of the country is Shia Muslim, there is deep opposition among many Shia tribes towards Iranian influence in the country. Sunni Arabs and Kurds will never accept being a satellite country of Iran. To many people forget that Iraq's bloodiest war in history was fought only 20 years ago, and the enemy was Iran. In addition, the majority of Iraqi's that died fighting the Iranians were Shia Arabs.

Iraq staying united makes the opportunity for foreign meddling in the country from neighbors less likely. The opportunities for foreign meddling by the neighbors grow when the country is split up into multiple states that will be smaller and weaker than a united Iraq.

Nation building is a very long process, and provided the coalition does not leave prematurely, it will accomplish its goals of building a relatively stable Iraqi democracy that will be able to handle its own security. With the exception of Saudi Arabia No other countries in the region have nearly the resources and wealth that the coalition countries in Iraq do. A return to a stable Iraq that is no longer the threat to Persian Gulf oil supply that it was under Saddam is what most countries in the region and the rest of the world for that matter want.
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Old 12-07-2006, 04:39 PM   #55
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Wouldn't anyone want to lose land if it contained people who they didn't want around anyway? I mean, I would! Of course the only alternative would be killing everyone on that land and making other use of it, and that's not very nice.
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Old 12-07-2006, 05:07 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally posted by Butterscotch
the only alternative would be killing everyone on that land and making other use of it, and that's not very nice.
You could say, it was tried, but didn't work out.

Sad, but true.
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Old 12-07-2006, 05:51 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally posted by Butterscotch
Wouldn't anyone want to lose land if it contained people who they didn't want around anyway? I mean, I would! Of course the only alternative would be killing everyone on that land and making other use of it, and that's not very nice.
Nobody said Turkey doesn't want the Kurds. They are Turkish citizens as well. A lot of them live in the west, a good deal live in Istanbul (in fact, it is the BIGGEST kurdish city by population). If people don't want to live in Turkey, they are free to move somewhere else, that's what I'm saying. No country would surrender its lands to another.
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Old 12-07-2006, 07:30 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally posted by all_i_want


Nobody said Turkey doesn't want the Kurds. They are Turkish citizens as well. A lot of them live in the west, a good deal live in Istanbul (in fact, it is the BIGGEST kurdish city by population). If people don't want to live in Turkey, they are free to move somewhere else, that's what I'm saying. No country would surrender its lands to another.
I still don't understand what you 're saying about that they are free to go...Go where.?Away of their homes.? The south-east parts of Turkey, Iran, Iraq and Syria is their homes...

Turkey is a mosaic of many nations Turks, Armenians, Kurds, etc. This is the biggest concern of the "Kemal's Turkey", if everyone wants the freedom to rule himself the country will collapse...
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Old 12-08-2006, 04:13 PM   #59
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Originally posted by menelaos


Turkey is a mosaic of many nations Turks, Armenians, Kurds, etc. This is the biggest concern of the "Kemal's Turkey", if everyone wants the freedom to rule himself the country will collapse...
Exactly! But our friend here keeps saying that we don't allow Kurds to go, or something along those lines. Of course we don't want anyone to leave, they are all a part of this country and the mix is what makes Turkey such an interesting place. Somehow.. erm.. Buttercup (?)... doesnt get it.
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Old 12-08-2006, 04:29 PM   #60
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Thing is, Kurds would love to have their own state just in the region menelaos mentioned.

You say, they are free to go meaning they should go away. But they don't want to leave the region they live in.
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