My brilliant solution for Iraq

[Snowlock]

Interesting idea. Who gets Baghdad? Who gets the Gulf? Who gets the oilfields? What about the shared holy places that will now be in one region or another?

 

[menelaos]

Thing is, Kurds would love to have their own state just in the region menelaos mentioned.

You say, they are free to go meaning they should go away. But they don't want to leave the region they live in.

Thanks god that someone is coming to my words...

 

[all_i_want]

Thing is, Kurds would love to have their own state just in the region menelaos mentioned.

You say, they are free to go meaning they should go away. But they don't want to leave the region they live in.

If they don't want to leave, then they should learn to live with the fact that they are citizens of those countries. Let's face it, none of the countries they live in wants a kurdish state, they will not allow it, and even if northern iraq breaks away and starts to act as an independent entity, and no one reacts to this through military action (unprobable) it will be a landlocked state with huge problems with all its neighbours. How do they expect to live like that? I mean, just look at Armenia, they are still officially at war with Azerbaijan, no diplomatic relations with Turkey, and Georgia isn't very cooperative to them either. That particular country only survives on the money sent by the Armenian diaspora.

Kurds might have some oil, but thats not worth a dime if they don't have ports or pipelines to send it through.

 

[Vincent Vega]

I just said what the Kurds would like to have, not that I think that is realistic.

I think the Kurds in Northern Iraq live on some oil, so they would be in a better position economically than other people that are aiming for independence, e.g. the Basque.
On the other hand, oild won't be there forever, and, as you said and which is very important, there is no access to any harbour without having to cross another country.

Turkey has made it very clear that they wouldn't accept an independent Kurdish state in the north of Iraq, and showed the Americans their willingness to attack such a state.

And you can say what you want, but even today Kurds don't have the same chances as Turks have, and they don't get treated equally, which the EU has pointed out several times.
So now they are finding a solution for Cyprus, and in one of the next years the Turkish government will be confronted with the EU demanding a better and equal treatment for the Kurds.

I'm not for a state Kurdistan, simply because it wouldn't make anything easier for the Kurds, and due to a lack of alternative sources they would be relying on the oil they have. Tourism isn't an option, because the region isn't really attractive for mass tourism, and there isn't really some other resource they could trade with.

 

[all_i_want]

I just said what the Kurds would like to have, not that I think that is realistic.

I think the Kurds in Northern Iraq live on some oil, so they would be in a better position economically than other people that are aiming for independence, e.g. the Basque.
On the other hand, oild won't be there forever, and, as you said and which is very important, there is no access to any harbour without having to cross another country.

Turkey has made it very clear that they wouldn't accept an independent Kurdish state in the north of Iraq, and showed the Americans their willingness to attack such a state.


And you can say what you want, but even today Kurds don't have the same chances as Turks have, and they don't get treated equally, which the EU has pointed out several times.
So now they are finding a solution for Cyprus, and in one of the next years the Turkish government will be confronted with the EU demanding a better and equal treatment for the Kurds.

I'm not for a state Kurdistan, simply because it wouldn't make anything easier for the Kurds, and due to a lack of alternative sources they would be relying on the oil they have. Tourism isn't an option, because the region isn't really attractive for mass tourism, and there isn't really some other resource they could trade with.

I recognize the fact that Kurds should be treated more equally, there is room for vast improvement on that. They are also citizens of Turkey and deserve the equal treatment. This is in the laws and regulations, but the implementation is rather patchy. But this is a process, things cant just change in a couple of years. There is progress here, but it will be more rapid if EU is more positive and less reprehensive.

Talking about a solution for Cyprus, you might want to check the thread about that, but it's not really.. lets say... happening.

 

[Vincent Vega]

I tried to do the Cyprus thing as short as possible because I'm aware of the other thread.

 

[menelaos]

Sorry but I couldn't ressist all_i_want, from telling that you again express wishes...The fact is that Kurds are treated little or very like 2nd category citizens, not to say like animals...Of-course it's not your fault -and I wish that there are more people like you in Turkey- but these happen...

 

[all_i_want]

I tried to do the Cyprus thing as short as possible because I'm aware of the other thread.

In any case, I guess we can all agree that Buttercup's brilliant plan for Iraq, partition, might not be as brilliant as previously propsed, and is in fact a disasterous idea divorced from reality on the ground.

I guess that puts a full stop to this thread.

 

[all_i_want]

Sorry but I couldn't ressist all_i_want, from telling that you again express wishes...The fact is that Kurds are treated little or very like 2nd category citizens, not to say like animals...Off-course it's not your fault -and I wish that there are more people like you in Turkey- but these happen...

The fact that Kurdish separatists fought a war against the country for 20 years has a lot to do with this. You wouldnt believe how much prejudice and dislike this creates for a whole ethnic group. There are many fences to mend, not only between the state and its citizens in the south east, but also between the people themselves. I believe we are moving in the right direction, albeit slowly, and we will get there eventually. I hope you wouldn't disagree with this.

 

[A_Wanderer]

Interesting to contrast the Kurds with another people without a state the Palestinians and the way that various countries treat them.

 

[all_i_want]

Well palestinians had a state there before Israel. That isnt the case with the Kurds.

 

[A_Wanderer]

Mandate Palestine wasn't a Palestinian State.

 

[all_i_want]

Mandate Palestine wasn't a Palestinian State.

Fair enough, but the UN solution of 1948 envisioned two states, which meant the Palestinians right to have a state there was recognized at the time. Since at the time of the UN resolution the British Mandate had ceased to exist and there was no sovereign power on the ground, the partition was to kick start the two states. This is unlike the situation in Iran, Turkey and Syria, where there is a viable government with sovereign authority in place. Although one could argue that such authority doesn't exist in Iraq..

 

[A_Wanderer]

That plan was rejected by the Arabs. It is moot, these states are post-colonial creations, the Kurds were unlucky enough to be straddling oil fields.

Iraqi Kurdistan has had it's own automonous government for over a decade now and can function. None of the percecution inflicted upon the Kurds justifies PKK terrorism in any way shape or form.

 

[Vincent Vega]

In any case, I guess we can all agree that Buttercup's brilliant plan for Iraq, partition, might not be as brilliant as previously propsed, and is in fact a disasterous idea divorced from reality on the ground.

I guess that puts a full stop to this thread.

Yes, we agreed on this before for several reasons I think

 

[Butterscotch]

No more disaterous than what that committee of old stuffed shirts came up with. Face it, there is NO WAY to keep Iraq as one country under one government peacefully (unless you count the way Saddam did it!)

And I do not care what the Turks think. They are guilty of violations against the Kurdish people and should be stopped as well!

 

[Vincent Vega]

And I do not care what the Turks think. They are guilty of violations against the Kurdish people and should be stopped as well!

And how would you do that?

 

[verte76]

And I do not care what the Turks think. They are guilty of violations against the Kurdish people and should be stopped as well!

Good luck. Turkey is a very powerful country and a U.S. ally. Because of Turkey's strategic location, this alliance is important to the U.S. Our government doesn't want to piss off the Turks.

 

[Butterscotch]

It is very sad the gov't would care more about 'pissing them off' than protecting lives. The hypocrisy is wrong. It's like China getting most favored nation status after all they've done. If you have something the US wants, you can get by with anything. If not you are picked on. There is no justice. I am so ashamed of this country sometimes.

 

[all_i_want]

It is very sad the gov't would care more about 'pissing them off' than protecting lives. The hypocrisy is wrong. It's like China getting most favored nation status after all they've done. If you have something the US wants, you can get by with anything. If not you are picked on. There is no justice. I am so ashamed of this country sometimes.

Which lives are you talking about? Can you show any news article that would back up your claims? Or are you just talking with nothing to back it up? Its sad that you know so little about these things than you think you do.

 

[verte76]

It is very sad the gov't would care more about 'pissing them off' than protecting lives. The hypocrisy is wrong. It's like China getting most favored nation status after all they've done. If you have something the US wants, you can get by with anything. If not you are picked on. There is no justice. I am so ashamed of this country sometimes.

So, should the U.S. trash our alliance with Turkey because of the Kurds? Using that same logic, we should break our alliance with Russia because of Chechneya, Britain because of Northern Ireland, and other countries with a history of human rights violations.

 

[anitram]

Using that same logic, we should break our alliance with Russia because of Chechneya, Britain because of Northern Ireland, and other countries with a history of human rights violations.

At least you are honest in admitting that alliances trump human rights.

 

[verte76]

At least you are honest in admitting that alliances trump human rights.

Absolutely. It's all "strategic locations" and "U.S. interests" and "business interests" and every damn thing in the world besides human rights. It annoys me, too, don't misunderstand me. Machiavelli didn't need to write "The Prince". The politicians would act the way they do anyway.

 

[Butterscotch]

Which lives are you talking about? Can you show any news article that would back up your claims? Or are you just talking with nothing to back it up? Its sad that you know so little about these things than you think you do.

Do you know what you're talking about? Since you admit to being from Turkey, there is a chance you have been fed untrue propaganda that twists the truth abou the situation. Yes, it happens in all countries, even the US. But from all I've seen and read over the years, the Turks are not the victims in the Kurd/Turk controversy.

 

[Butterscotch]

At least you are honest in admitting that alliances trump human rights.

Of course they do. I am not saying to 'break alliance' with anyone but in a way it is terrible that there are some countries we don't speak to because of something much less than something another one has done, but if they have something we want, we brush it under the rug. It's a double standard. Why worry about making someone angry when they are committing genocide? America should use its international clout to get these things stopped instead of ignoring them in exchange for getting the things they want.

Look at how far this has gone. Iraq has been destroyed, and the US uses the excuse that they had to get the regime out because of the terrible things they were doing- yet many other regimes are doing things just as bad, even worse, but they are let off the hook because they have something the US wants. Who knows, maybe one day they will just use invasion to get their way.

 

[bgmckinney]

I don't know why no one has thought of it. There is NO way this country can exist as one entity when it is comprised of factions who all hate each other. Just as with Yugoslavia, Iraq is nothing more than a creation of those post WWI political heads who thought they were doing the right thing in divvying up the world after the collapse of the German, Austro-Hungarian and Ottman empires. They often, for convenience's sake, drew lines around places that should never have been lumped into one country in the first place. There has been lots of trouble ever since.

The only real solution to stopping the factional violence is to separate the country of Iraq into regions- one for the Kurds, one for the Shiites, one for each type of Sunnis. Then no one would feel they had to fight the other for control of the government! Separate automous regions, or even countries, would settle these unsolvable differences. For a few years, UN sanctioned peacekeepers could guard the borders and see how it goes.

What do you think?

I have to apologize first, because I have only read the original post - I'm on my way to bed and have not read the whole thread. So if I am repeating someone else's observation, forgive me. I only mean this as a casual observation:
In international relations theory, there is a term known as "balkanization." This term refers to precisely the situation you refer to - the splitting-up of countries like Yugoslavia, Bosnia-Herzegovina, and by extension any nation or nations in an ethnically troubled region. The term is not a positive one.
During the 19th and 20th century, statehood was imposed on a number of regions that had not naturally developed the concept of statehood for themselves. This imposition, which usually took the form of colonialism, has caused a lot of problems. Societies were forced to adopt of foreign concept of social organisation, without the necessary foundations of idelology and experience which made that concept of organisation appropriate elsewhere. It was a terrible thing. But in the eyes of many observers, the only way forward is to accept that this system is here to stay and forge ahead anyway. You're right that Iraq should never have been designed the way it exists now - with these different ethnic groups thrown together haphazardly. But in the end, integration, and not separation, is always a better thing - however difficult the process of integration may be. These are just a few casual thoughts - I gotta run. Cheers

 

[Butterscotch]

Thanks for your analysis, and for reading my posts. But how can it be a 'good thing' when there is so much infighting? You can't make these people like each other, and the only way to keep them alongside one another in peace is by military force and intimidation. How is that a good thing?

 

[all_i_want]

Do you know what you're talking about? Since you admit to being from Turkey, there is a chance you have been fed untrue propaganda that twists the truth abou the situation. Yes, it happens in all countries, even the US. But from all I've seen and read over the years, the Turks are not the victims in the Kurd/Turk controversy.

Yeah.. I 'admit' to being from Turkey, even though it IS a horrid crime. But this doesn't mean that I am brainwashed by your so called propaganda. I have lived abroad quite a bit - as I am doing currently - and I do follow most of the international publications, as well as Turkish ones. I have studied International Relations, so actually I have spent hours reading on these topics instead of.. say.. making up off the cuff facts at my discretion. From what I've seen so far you haven't actually shown any sources to back up your claims that Turkey is killing Kurds or whatever. It somehow isn't very credible for the random American whose never actually crossed over to this side of the world to start delivering judgement on issues they don't have an intricate knowledge or even a vague understanding of. It must be very easy to cast judgement from the comfort of one's suburban home, saying 'oh these people are horrible' or 'yeah, split up the country, already'. You've never lived in Turkey, hell, maybe not even stepped foot on this part of the world, you've probably never heard of any PKK or any other player that was involved in the conflict, you haven't been following the issue pretty much all your life from local and international media, YET you happen to be a very precise and apt critic on it. It might be very easy for a self-absorbed American to gobble up any press release from the White House, but it is a bit different in the rest of the world, as you might notice some day. You might want to brush up on your reading and then come back and.. afterwards, we'll discuss your brilliant opinions on international politics and Middle East policy.

 

[verte76]

Arabs think in terms of tribe, not nationality. Al-Zarkawi didn't give a damn that he was Jordanian-born. Jordan is a kingdom that was shaped by the British. Al-Zarkawi only cared that he was a member of a tribe that mostly lives in Iraq and he was just really into the terrorist mind-set. When they took Saddam out all of the people came out of the woodworks and now there's nothing to stop their insurgency. Taking Al-Zarkawi out didn't accomplish a damn thing. The Turks, by contrast, do think in terms of a country. We're seeing an example of this right here in FYM with all_i_want. Turkey is his country and he wants it to stay intact. That's logical enough. He's acknowledged that their Kurdish policy has been a problem for them. They need to have equal rights, the right to use their own language and have their culture without any disruption from political authorities. I had an interesting guy for a tour guide in Turkey. His sister is married to a Kurd, and they live in Istanbul. If they can clean up their human rights act, and let the Kurds live the way they want to, they shouldn't have to give up any of their land for an independent Kurdistan. The way things are going northern Iraq might form an independent Kurdistan. I don't think that will happen, though, too many people are unhappy with that scenario. The whole situation is such a fg mess that who knows what the hell is going to happen in the end---if, indeed, there is an end. A civil war just might go on and on, sort of like Northern Ireland. Unfortunately, the last thing the powers that be care about is human rights. That's going to get trampled underfoot while everyone tries to grab a piece of the oil pie. If the place didn't have oil nothing would be going on.

 

[Butterscotch]

I have seen the pictures and footage of the gassed Kurdish villages

To all Turks who feel the Kurds are a 'threat', why not just toss them out of your country, or better yet designate a piece of land they can stay on away from you? I hardly think they are any kind of military threat to attack you, what with no army and no money. It seems some Turks and some Iraqis just want these people DEAD. There doesn't seem to be any other explaination for the way the've been treated.

I know when people of any country grow up believing a certain way it's hard to change your feelings, but it can be done. I remember how shocked I was to find out that the US gov't had annihilated most of the Native tribes in what basically amounts to genocide. The ones who weren't killed were mostly 'reeducated' out of their culture. The few who are left are on reservations living in very poor conditions. It's a nation disgrace. I guess maybe every country has one, or two.