My Apologies to the Muslim People

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Dreadsox

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U.S. Confirms Gitmo Soldier Kicked Quran


WASHINGTON (AP) - U.S. military officials say no guard at the Guantanamo Bay prison for terror suspects flushed a detainee's Quran down the toilet, but they disclosed that a Muslim holy book was splashed with urine. In other newly disclosed incidents, a detainee's Quran was deliberately kicked and another's was stepped on.

On March 25, a detainee complained to guards that "urine came through an air vent" and splashed on him and his Quran. A guard admitted he was at fault, but a report released Friday evening offering new details about Quran mishandling incidents did not make clear whether the guard intended the result.

In another confirmed incident, water balloons thrown by prison guards caused an unspecified number of Qurans to get wet, and in a confirmed but ambiguous case, a two-word obscenity was written in English on the inside cover of a Quran.

The findings, released after normal business hours Friday evening and after the major TV networks had aired their evening news programs, are among the results of an investigation last month by Brig. Gen. Jay Hood, the commander of the detention center in Cuba. A Newsweek magazine report - later retracted - that a U.S. soldier had flushed one Guantanamo Bay detainee's Quran down a toilet triggered the investigation.

The story stirred worldwide controversy, and the Bush administration blamed it for deadly demonstrations in Afghanistan.

Hood said in a written statement released with the new details that his investigation "revealed a consistent, documented policy of respectful handling of the Quran dating back almost 2 1/2 years."

Lawrence Di Rita, chief spokesman for Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld, did not address the confirmed incidents of mishandling the Muslim holy book. Reached while traveling with Rumsfeld in Asia, he said U.S. Southern Command policy calls for "serious, respectful and appropriate" handling of the Quran.

"The Hood inquiry would appear to affirm that policy," Di Rita said.

Hood said that of nine mishandling cases that were studied in detail by reviewing thousands of pages of written records, five were confirmed. He could not determine conclusively whether the other four took place.

In one of the unconfirmed cases, a detainee in April 2003 complained to FBI and other interrogators that guards "constantly defile the Quran." The detainee alleged that in one instance a female military guard threw a Quran into a bag of wet towels to anger another detainee, and he also alleged that another guard said the Quran belonged in the toilet and that guards were ordered to do these things.

Hood said he found no other record of this detainee mentioning any Quran mishandling. The detainee has since been released.

In the March incident, as described in the report, the guard had left his observation post to go outside to urinate. The wind blew his urine through an air vent into the cell block. The guard's supervisor reprimanded him and assigned him to gate guard duty, where he had no contact with detainees, for the rest of his assignment at Guantanamo Bay.

In another of the confirmed cases, a contract interrogator stepped on a detainee's Quran in July 2003 and then apologized. "The interrogator was later terminated for a pattern of unacceptable behavior, an inability to follow direct guidance and poor leadership," the Hood report said.

Hood also said his investigation found 15 cases of detainees mishandling their own Qurans. "These included using a Quran as a pillow, ripping pages out of the Quran, attempting to flush a Quran down the toilet and urinating on the Quran," Hood's report said. It offered no possible explanation for the detainees' motives.

In the most recent of those 15 cases, a detainee on Feb. 18 allegedly ripped up his Quran and handed it to a guard, stating that he had given up on being a Muslim. Several guards witnessed this, Hood reported.

Last week, Hood disclosed he had confirmed five cases of mishandling of the Quran, but he refused to provide details. Allegations of Quran desecration at Guantanamo Bay have led to anti-American passions in many Muslim nations, although Pentagon officials have insisted that the problems were relatively minor and that U.S. commanders have gone to great lengths to enable detainees to practice their religion in captivity.

Hood said last week he found no credible evidence that a Quran was ever flushed down a toilet. He said a prisoner who was reported to have complained to an FBI agent in 2002 that a military guard threw a Quran in the toilet has since told Hood's investigators that he never witnessed any form of Quran desecration.

Other prisoners who were returned to their home countries after serving time at Guantanamo Bay as terror suspects have alleged Quran desecration by U.S. guards, and some have said a Quran was placed in a toilet.

There are about 540 detainees at Guantanamo Bay. Some have been there more than three years without being charged with a crime. Most were captured on the battlefields of Afghanistan in 2001 and 2002 and were sent to Guantanamo Bay in hope of extracting useful intelligence about the al-Qaida terrorist network.

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:sad:
 
A_Wanderer said:
To prevent this from happening copies of the Koran should not be given to illegal combatants.

Didn't you say earlier that one of the reasons Gitmo is different from a gulag was that they can worship?

Plus why the hell should the Koran be taken from them? The Koran by itself is not evil, their interpretation of it may be but not the book itself.

If that's the case remove the Bible from the White House.
 
Oh, these inmates should definitely be allowed to have their Korans. This stuff like getting urine on the Korans is just not cool, and it's got to stop.
 
Well, this is the main reason why I think soldiers need a good dose of professionalism training. We wouldn't excuse racism, homophobia, and religious intolerance in the civilian world, so why should we excuse such blatantly unprofessional behavior in the military? It boggles me how clueless the military leadership is on this issue, so until they learn to grow a few brain cells themselves, expect more stories like this. And guess what? Like clockwork, we get them. Pathetic.

Melon
 
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verte76 said:
Oh, these inmates should definitely be allowed to have their Korans. This stuff like getting urine on the Korans is just not cool, and it's got to stop.

Hood also said his investigation found 15 cases of detainees mishandling their own Qurans. "These included using a Quran as a pillow, ripping pages out of the Quran, attempting to flush a Quran down the toilet and urinating on the Quran," Hood's report said. It offered no possible explanation for the detainees' motives.

Thoses detainees should get a lesson in proper handling of the Koran.
 
nbcrusader said:




Thoses detainees should get a lesson in proper handling of the Koran.

Oh, my goodness, that's not cool. This is about like us urinating on our Bibles. Needless to say I'd never do such a thing. This doesn't excuse what the U.S. people have done to the Korans, but, to be fair, I doubt it if the detainees at Gitmo are exactly the salt of the earth. They're probably mostly SOB's. I mean, what kind of person supported the Taliban?
 
verte76 said:
Oh, these inmates should definitely be allowed to have their Korans. This stuff like getting urine on the Korans is just not cool, and it's got to stop.



Not to mention it really makes lousy PR. We start by calling this war on terror Operation Crusade and go downhill from there.
 
Isn't the Koran what the likes of OBL are using to justify their acts ?

I'll gladly accept apologies from radical Muslim groups for misinterpreting the Koran, in return I will gladly apologise for any abuse thereof by the US Military
 
I'm still waiting for an apology from Christian groups for misinterpreting the Bible, but that's a whole other discussion.

Melon
 
Muslims blow other Muslims and their Mosques up, but we have to appologize for kicking a book?

This world is ass-backwards and the US has become apologists for everything. I refuse to praise, lift up, and feel sympathy for prisoners while trashing US soldiers.

This thread starter and the tiltle of this thread make me want to vomit.
 
theblazer said:
Muslims blow other Muslims and their Mosques up, but we have to appologize for kicking a book?

This world is ass-backwards and the US has become apologists for everything. I refuse to praise, lift up, and feel sympathy for prisoners while trashing US soldiers.

This thread starter and the tiltle of this thread make me want to vomit.

So just to clarify, would you consider it acceptable for Bibles to be defaced as a tactic for psychologically intimidating suspected Christian terrorist prisoners?

Don't ask me to list examples of Christian terrorist organisations, I can list three in my own country (Ireland) alone (currently on ceasfire, fortunately.

And you're remarks about the thread starter are a little misguided.
 
melon said:
Well, this is the main reason why I think soldiers need a good dose of professionalism training. We wouldn't excuse racism, homophobia, and religious intolerance in the civilian world, so why should we excuse such blatantly unprofessional behavior in the military?

I totally agree. Nobody should stoop to this level. If the positions were reversed, we wouldn't want them treating our holy things that way. So what gives us the right to do it to them? We need to be better than that.
 
theblazer said:
Muslims blow other Muslims and their Mosques up, but we have to appologize for kicking a book?

This world is ass-backwards and the US has become apologists for everything. I refuse to praise, lift up, and feel sympathy for prisoners while trashing US soldiers.

This thread starter and the tiltle of this thread make me want to vomit.

I'm sorry you can't hold yourself to higher standards than terrorists. That makes me sick.:|
 
theblazer said:
Muslims blow other Muslims and their Mosques up, but we have to appologize for kicking a book?

This world is ass-backwards and the US has become apologists for everything. I refuse to praise, lift up, and feel sympathy for prisoners while trashing US soldiers.

This thread starter and the tiltle of this thread make me want to vomit.

I would strongly recommend you read all of my posts from the last four years.....

Apparently I get it from both sides.....

And FYI....I am a former US Army MP E-5 and I can tell you I was not trained to do these kinds of things nor would I have.
 
nbcrusader said:
Thoses detainees should get a lesson in proper handling of the Koran.

I can think of plausible explanations for the reports of the detainees renouncing their religions. For example, they could have been trying to curry favour with the guards.
 
financeguy said:

And you're remarks about the thread starter are a little misguided.



Thanks....:wink:.....Its not every day I am defended by the left.
 
For the record, when my own governement comes out and admits these things, I feel compelled to apologize.

I think everyone in here knows that I will defend the servicemen and women almost to a fault.....

But in this instance, I am very embarassed.
 
Dreadsox said:




Thanks....:wink:.....Its not every day I am defended by the left.

Cheers!

P.S. For the record, I see myself as a free market libertarian rather than a leftist though on the Iraq war I probably would tend to side with the left (as you may have guessed)! :wink:
 
I don't see the need in trashing the starter of this thread. Dreadsox is one of my favorite FYM posters, he's one of the fairest, most respectful and thoughtful posters here. As a liberal, I don't always agree with his posts as he leans conservative, but that's beside the point. I think his post was excellent, this has got to be painful to many veterans of the military who served their country. There is simply no excuse for this behavior on the part of U.S. military.
 
theblazer said:
Muslims blow other Muslims and their Mosques up, but we have to appologize for kicking a book?

If it were not for the indignant comments and cheap swipe at Dread, we actually had a statement worth discussing here.
 
I second the opinion, Dreadsox. You got the proper training..you. it appears, hail from a not-so-distant era when the people in charge were true professionals, solid, decent, GOD-FEARING men who took their jobs seriously and didn't let little things like pettiness and personal grudges interfere with their work. And they oversaw and participated in FAR WORSE conflicts then this little shindig we're in now. I often wonder how these jokers in command of our Armed Forces would have stood up to the great heroes of the past, how they would have acted in times such as WWII, who steered this country through the threat of Hitler, etc?

I am not speaking of the military rank and file..I'm talking about Rumsfeld and his little cabal who daily continue to soil and defame a great institution. It IS a case of "a few rotten apples", indeed, but those apples are at the very top, not the bottom. I have many friends in the milarary, and oneof them is a t the exact opposite of me politcally, but we both agree on this stuff.

How would some of YOU like it if communion bread were flushed down a toilet, and someone relieved themsleves into a chalice of Communion wine? We're not even talking the Bible here. And they could, upon thse grounds, justify this act by saying, hey, it's not a Bible.

I shouldn't have to say any further.

Oh..and FinanceGuy..I should hope that things will remain normal in your part of the woods, now that Trimble's out and the Looney Tunes on both sides are back in charg.I have hope however. The people have tasted the benefits of peace too long. And Ireland isn't the Palestinain Territories. No walls are going up anytime soon. The damage may well reamin largely political.
 
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Dreadsox said:
For the record, when my own governement comes out and admits these things, I feel compelled to apologize.

I think everyone in here knows that I will defend the servicemen and women almost to a fault.....

But in this instance, I am very embarassed.

Embarrassed by something the US has done; join the club. It's getting bigger everyday...unfortunately.:(
 
theblazer said:
Muslims blow other Muslims and their Mosques up, but we have to appologize for kicking a book?

I suppose if it were a Mosque full of "infidels' maybe they can justify it to themselves. In fact, I think they have justification of their own for killing other Muslims. Like those who associate with Jews or Americans.

As far as apologizing for kicking a book, it's the military itself, policing itself. Saying "we hold ourselves to a higher standard". So in that respect, I admire that they want to investigate it and try to live up to the standard.

War is an ugly thing and I am sure that some of the prisoners at Gitmo have had their share of abuse, but I don't think it's the norm. It's like our POW's in all of our wars, some were treated fairly, others were brutally tortured.

Here we don't even have POW's, and most of them are treated better than American soldiers were in almost any war we've ever had. But the difference is, we hold ourselves to a higher standard, at least try to anyways.

Let those cowardly bastards do what they want, kill their own, blow up their own churches, whatever they want to do wouldn't surprise me. But just because they do that, doesn't mean I would expect the American soldiers to relax from being humane.

It's about the circle of what can come back to you. Let's say we go to war with Iran, and they get some of our POW's. What sort of liscence do you think they will take from reading all of this "abuse". Lighthearted or not to you or I, it's serious to them and at some point could reflect right back on the soldiers fighting these wars.

Which is precisely why their superiors are trying to police this.
Because we want to treat others good, not only because it's the right thing to do, but because we want opposition to treat our prisoners fairly.

Then again these aren't even POW's, so maybe it's not analagous.
 
But urine on a Koran is art, Piss Koran ~ it makes a bold statement about the deconstructed text itself. It should be put on tour as high art.
 
A_Wanderer said:
But urine on a Koran is art, Piss Koran ~ it makes a bold statement about the deconstructed text itself. It should be put on tour as high art.

This is a reference to the "Piss-Christ" artwork a few years back, I take it?

I take it you do understand the difference between:

(1) A prison guard pissing on the Koran to psychologically intimidate Muslim prisoners.

(2) An artistic commentary on the suffering of the crucified Christ.

If Christ was fully human and fully God, then being fully a human of course he ate, slept, urinated and defecated.

It is also a matter of biogical fact that someone being crucified probably would p*** and s*** themselves.

For the record, at the time the whole media hullaboo over "Piss-Christ" erupted I was still a practising Christian and I DID NOT FIND THE ART WORK IN ANY WAY OFFENSIVE. (Was I supposed to??)

I think the only thing your above comments show is that:

(1) Intelligent though you are, art ain't your forte.

(2) As an atheist, you appear to be inconsistent in that you will happily slag off Islam at every opportunity, but I have yet to read a post of yours criticising the excesses of the Christian right or the misdeeds of terrorists wearing the Christian banner (in the latter case, as I said previously, I can list numerous examples, not least in my own country). I think there is a huge level of ignorance/naivetie on here and possibly in the Western world in general regarding this particular issue of terrorists wearing the Christian banner.
 
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financeguy said:

(2) An artistic commentary on the suffering of the crucified Christ.

I don't understand how that work of "art" was a commentary on the suffering of Christ.
 
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