Muslim woman fights to keep on veil for driver's license photo - U2 Feedback

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Old 05-29-2003, 02:01 AM   #1
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Muslim woman fights to keep on veil for driver's license photo

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ORLANDO, Florida (AP) -- Experts in Islamic law are being called to testify in the lawsuit of a Muslim woman fighting a state order to take off her veil for her driver's license photo.

Sultanna Freeman, 35, says Florida's insistence on photographing her face violates her religious rights.

"I don't unveil ... because it would be disobeying my Lord," Freeman testified Tuesday at the start of her non-jury trial.

Assistant Attorney General Jason Vail argued that having an easily identifiable photo on a driver's license is a matter of public safety.

"It's the primary method of identification in Florida and the nation," Vail said. "I don't think there can be any doubt there is a public safety interest."

Freeman's attorneys argue that state officials didn't care that she wore a veil in her Florida driver's license photo until after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, an allegation the state denies.

"This is about religious liberty. It's about whether this country is going to have religious diversity," said Howard Marks, an attorney for the American Civil Liberties Union of Florida.

Both sides planned to call experts in Islamic law at the trial, which continues Wednesday. A copy of the Quran has been entered into evidence.

Freeman, a convert to Islam previously known as Sandra Kellar, wore her veil for the photo on the Florida driver's license she obtained after moving to the state in 2001.

Nine months later, she received a letter from the state warning that it would revoke her license unless she returned for a photo with her face uncovered.

Freeman claims her religious beliefs require her to keep her head and face covered out of modesty and that her faith prohibits her face from being photographed.





This is absolute BS

If this woman wants to wear her veil in her drivers license photo...she can walk as far as I'm concerned



Amish people...don' drive cars due to their religious beliefs


Jewish People dont' work on saturday due to their religious beliefs


If we cant' tell that's she's passing her license on to someone else....it's no good.


Sh'es a whiner that wants public attn...and in fact looking at other muslim countries....she's being an idiot


So really the choice is simple she can either abide by the saudi system..or the system in the countries below.


Freedom of religion just means you won't be jailed for your beliefs...it's not a rite of passage to bypass measures implemented by general society. In that case can't I say that appearing for jury duty is against my hindu belief of not judging others? or that paying taxes doesn't cohere with my beliefs ?



This woman can go to hell...and take this case with her. The entire muslims world seems to realize an ID card such as a driver's lcense is useless with the veil on...why can't this woman?


Driverís identification rules in Muslim nations:
Saudi Arabia: Women aren't allowed to drive
Iran: Women wear a traditional chador, which does not cover the face.
Egypt: Women do not cover their face in I.D. pictures
United Arab Emirates: Women do not cover their face in I.D. pictures
Oman: Women do not cover their face in I.D. pictures
Kuwait: Women do not cover their face in I.D. pictures
Qatar: Women do not cover their face in I.D. pictures
Bahrain: Women do not cover their face in I.D. pictures
Jordan: Women can drive if their faces are covered but do not cover their face in I.D. pictures




http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/05/28/li....ap/index.html
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Old 05-29-2003, 02:09 AM   #2
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1. not every Jewish person refuses to work on saturday due to religious beliefs, it depends on the type of Judaism they practice.


2. "this woman can go to hell"? let's be a bit more rational please.
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Old 05-29-2003, 02:16 AM   #3
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Hi Arun,

How ya doin'

Are you on break or still in school?

Regarding this thread?

I am really surprised to see you post something that might be construed as insensitive to Muslims.
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Old 05-29-2003, 02:19 AM   #4
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Originally posted by Lilly
1. not every Jewish person refuses to work on saturday due to religious beliefs, it depends on the type of Judaism they practice.


2. "this woman can go to hell"? let's be a bit more rational please.

yes..but some do choose to not workin accordance with their beliefs some of tehm dont' even drive cars..so limiting use of vehicles is sue to religion is not unheard of



She can go to hell, last time I checked islam does contain teh concept of hell as does chrristianity so I believe that her going to hell would be in accordance with her beliefs....unlike posing for her drivers license photo.Irrationality....doesn't factor into that comment[/sarcasm]



I'm just sick of the stupidity of some suits that people bring up.



She has two choices 1.) pose for the photo without the veil

2.) give up driving
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Old 05-29-2003, 02:24 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally posted by deep
Hi Arun,

How ya doin'

Are you on break or still in school?

Regarding this thread?

I am really surprised to see you post something that might be construed as insensitive to Muslims.


how is it insensitive?..I never slandered the religion...I never slandered the people...I simply stated that this woman was an idiot. Based on the policies of islamic countries...using a measure that governments of islamic nations use



I dont' use my beliefs to circumvent insitutions or laws that are inconvienient to me. Why should she?

..Deep...you need to look up the definition of insensitivity. I believe dictionary.com might be of some use to you
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Old 05-29-2003, 07:18 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by Arun V
yes..but some do choose to not workin accordance with their beliefs some of tehm dont' even drive cars..so limiting use of vehicles is sue to religion is not unheard of


The difference is that the state doesn't forbid Jewish people from driving on a Saturday - individual Jews make that decision for themselves based on their religious beliefs and the state has no input into it.

In this case, the government would be preventing this woman from driving if she refused to do something which she believes compromises her religious beliefs. There's quite a difference.
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Old 05-29-2003, 07:51 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees


The difference is that the state doesn't forbid Jewish people from driving on a Saturday - individual Jews make that decision for themselves based on their religious beliefs and the state has no input into it.

In this case, the government would be preventing this woman from driving if she refused to do something which she believes compromises her religious beliefs. There's quite a difference. [/B]


Well if she chooses to drive.....she has to have a photo ID driver's licence in which her face is identifiable....she can make that individual decision ofr herself whether or not it's it's a contradiction of islam



In order to drive you require a photo id of you that is recognizeable.....if you don't want to have your photo taken...you can make the decision for yourself to not drive...or to have your photo taken.

and FW....even mulsim countries don't do this....so why should the US?



What's next try people by religous law in accordance with their religion? Can we even call our selves a secular state if that happens.



Can I just declare my house the "Hindustani State of Arun" "AKA Arunstan and refuse to pay federal taxes because I believe that only a man living in a state of nature can fulfill his dharma and that paying taxes to a regime that has committed acts outside the realm of dharma is morally wrong?????





I have just as much of a right to do that as she does to have a veiled photo of her on her drivers license.



Just think about how many things are dependent on your drivers license? A license that is easy to commit fraud with....if all you need is a veil and a woman roughly that height.....it may not be in her best interests either...but I'll leave that to her to decide.




Still NO ONE has addressed the fact that even middle eastern governments don't make this allowance...NO ONE.
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Old 05-29-2003, 08:01 AM   #8
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Arun, calm down! I wasn't saying I agreed with this woman's lawsuit, I just said I don't think it's accurate to compare her case with the example of Jewish people choosing not to drive on the Sabbath because of religious convictions.
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Old 05-29-2003, 08:17 AM   #9
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Actually, I have to disagree with Fizzing on this one. Arun has been a little, uh, vehement , but he does have a point. If the law is that her face must be uncovered and *other Muslim women do not have a problem with this* (which I'm guessing they don't, because I have seen women in head scarves behind the wheel in my hometown), then she needs to either uncover her face or put her religious convictions first and not drive.

What I would like to know is this: is she the only woman behind this lawsuit, or are there LOTS of other Muslim women who also do not wish to uncover their faces? If she were representing thousands of Muslim American women who believed this was wrong, then she might have a point. But as far as I know, at least, other Muslim American women have been photographed for driver's licenses just like everyone else. So maybe this is less about Muslim women's religious rights and more about this woman's personal spin on Islam.
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Old 05-29-2003, 08:21 AM   #10
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Actually I'll admit......I'm just kinda crabby..and I think I took it out on this thread....I'm on like 2 hours of sleep thanks to a deadline I'm up against.


maybe I just need some tea

didn't mean to go off on you FW


Cmon....group hug
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Old 05-29-2003, 09:36 AM   #11
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Hope you get some more sleep soon, Arun.
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Old 05-29-2003, 03:09 PM   #12
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If more than one Muslim woman complained about this I'd be a little more sympathetic. I know of quite a few religious Muslim women, who wear veils, who did unveil for their drivers license and other I.D. pix. I understand why they don't want to be immodest, but I don't know what to do about it because there's a reason we want pictures of people's faces on drivers' licenses. I'm not going to tell her to go to hell or anything else like that. Bring on the Muslim scholars to help sort this controversy out.
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Old 05-29-2003, 03:42 PM   #13
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Arun, I think your instincts/observations were right.

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/sultaana1.html


Turns out the Florida woman who is suing for the right to wear a Muslim headdress in a driver's license photograph has previously been subjected to an, um, unveiled government portrait. Following her 1997 conversion to Islam, Sultaana Freeman (formerly Sandra Keller) was arrested in Decatur, Illinois for battering a foster child. Freeman, 35, pleaded guilty in 1999 to felony aggravated battery and was sentenced to 18 months probation. As a result of the conviction, state officials removed two foster children from Freeman's care. The mug shot of the felonious Freeman (below left) was taken after her arrest in the Illinois case. Freeman returned to the dock this week--that's her testifying in the below right photo--to challenge Florida rules requiring prospective drivers to submit to unveiled photos for their licenses. Last year, Freeman sued the state after her license was revoked when she failed to allow officials to photograph her sans headdress. State officials contend that, in light of the September 11 attacks, it is crucial that all motorists now be photographed in an unadorned state. (1 page)


It seems the plaintiff in this case has something to "hyde"!
Perhaps use of her "mug" shot on her license might be an appropriate compromise?
Funny, she wasn't wearing her veil then.
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Old 05-29-2003, 04:53 PM   #14
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I have to agree with Arun on this one. If strict Muslim countries require a photo ID, why should the US be any different? It would be out of line for me to question this woman's commitment to her faith but I believe she's approaching this situation with fervor of a convert.

Its a matter of safety...if she can't uncover her face, she needs to start taking the bus.
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