Muslim girl who snuck out of her scarf killed by father - Page 2 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 12-16-2007, 05:29 PM   #16
Blue Crack Addict
 
Moonlit_Angel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: In a dimension known as the Twilight Zone...do de doo doo, do de doo doo...
Posts: 19,256
Local Time: 08:38 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Butterscotch
That doesn't make it okay. I am tired of people disregarding stories like this just because it's not PC. It's abhorrant that archaic cultural practices can be this extreme. Every religion and culture had old fashioned ways at one time, but they had the intelligence and reason to change with the times. This is what the girl was trying to prove, that she could still be religious and good regardless of what she wore.
Exactly.

And even so, I'm fine with Islam having its traditions just like any other religion/culture, they have things about their faith that make them very unique and fascinating, and it's cool. But when a clash of opinions leads to people getting killed over it...there's a problem. And I'd say that no matter what religion or culture we're talking about.

Angela
__________________

__________________
Moonlit_Angel is online now  
Old 12-16-2007, 07:44 PM   #17
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
Pearl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: NYC
Posts: 5,653
Local Time: 10:38 PM
Here's a similar story. Its about how some Muslim girls in the UK go under surgery to reconstruct their hymens so they would be "born again" virgins on their wedding night.

Quote:
If my husband cannot prove to his family that I am a virgin, I would be hounded, ostracised and sent home in disgrace. My father, who is a devout Muslim, would regard it as the ultimate shame.

"The entire family could be cast out from the friends and society they hold dear, and I honestly believe that one of my fanatically religious cousins or uncles might kill me in revenge, to purge them of my sins. Incredible as it may seem, honour killings are still accepted within our religion.



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/liv...n_page_id=1879
__________________

__________________
Pearl is offline  
Old 12-16-2007, 09:21 PM   #18
Forum Moderator
 
yolland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 7,471
Local Time: 03:38 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Butterscotch
I am tired of people disregarding stories like this just because it's not PC.
I think you're confusing questioning certain assumptions about the specifics of the perpetrator's mindset with questioning the condemnation of the act itself. The two have nothing to do with each other.
__________________
yolland [at] interference.com


μελετώ αποτυγχάνειν. -- Διογένης της Σινώπης
yolland is offline  
Old 12-16-2007, 10:24 PM   #19
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,654
Local Time: 08:38 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Butterscotch


That doesn't make it okay. I am tired of people disregarding stories like this just because it's not PC. It's abhorrant that archaic cultural practices can be this extreme. Every religion and culture had old fashioned ways at one time, but they had the intelligence and reason to change with the times. This is what the girl was trying to prove, that she could still be religious and good regardless of what she wore.
Who's disregarding stories like this because it's not PC?
__________________
BVS is online now  
Old 12-17-2007, 12:32 AM   #20
Forum Moderator
 
yolland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 7,471
Local Time: 03:38 AM
I'd also be wary about slapping the label 'honor killing' on this case without knowing a lot more than has yet been reported about the precise trajectory of what happened, the specific subculture within Pakistan Mr. Parvez comes from and its customs, and how extensive his personal history of committing domestic violence is. Honor killings do occur with some regularity in numerous regions of the world--specific areas of South and Central Asia, Latin America and the Caribbean, the Middle East and Africa--among (primarily) clan- or tribe-based, patriarchal societies. While their incidence does tend to be concentrated in certain particular areas and/or among ethnic group(s) native to those areas, the practice is neither unique to, nor original to, any one particular religion or nationality--Hindus, Muslims and Sikhs in the Punjab have all committed it; Christian, Druze and Muslim Arabs have all committed it; Christian and voudun Haitians have all committed it. Islam per se has no such concept as 'honor killing'--the closest thing in sharia law would be the allowance of capital punishment specifically for married men or women who commit adultery, though most Muslim states' constitutions forbid that--and I know of only one Muslim state, Jordan, which legally permits 'honor killings' in the usual sense (i.e., execution of a woman by male relatives for premarital sex), based on a rationale called al-urf--i.e., legitimacy of traditional local customs as sources of legislation in situations where the Koran and Sunnah don't provide clear precedents.

In Pakistan specifically, since that's where Mr. Parvez is from, there are several ethnic groups among whom karo kari (Urdu/Sindhi for 'honor killing'; Pashto tur) has some cultural sanction as a punishment for zina (illicit sexual intercourse--adultery, premarital sex, homosexual sex). Karo kari is illegal in Pakistani law proper but, nonetheless, by government estimates about 1000 Pakistanis (roughly 80% women/20% men) are killed in the name of karo kari annually. I've never personally heard of karo kari being committed for not wearing a headscarf, and am not at all sure whether Pakistanis of Mr. Parvez's specific ethnic group would even recognize such a concept. Not saying it doesn't exist, just that I've never heard of it, and lack sufficient information about his particular subcultural background to knowledgeably address that possibility. [ETA: I should qualify that zina is often a flagrantly trumped-up charge, particularly in cases where the woman's family wishes to prevent a marriage that would entail transferring valuable property to her new family.] It's also possible that Mr. Parvez is simply a violent man with a history of using beatings and threats to enforce his will in the home as well as a poorly assimilated immigrant who could not and would not accept the reality that his children are growing up in a different cultural world than he did, one with different sensibilities about what constitutes proper attire. If something more like the latter is the case, than 'honor killing' would definitely not be an appropriate label; that's far too arbitrary a use of the term. It will be interesting to see how Mr. Parvez and his lawyer choose to articulate his motives in court (as well as how other members of his ethnic cohort in Canada react to that) but at any rate, that hasn't happened yet.
__________________
yolland [at] interference.com


μελετώ αποτυγχάνειν. -- Διογένης της Σινώπης
yolland is offline  
Old 12-17-2007, 01:33 AM   #21
The Male
 
LemonMelon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Hollywoo
Posts: 65,790
Local Time: 06:38 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by dazzlingamy
Yolland, once again your post sums up what I want to say. Although a horrendous crime, since the eons of time some fathers are hell bent on keeping their children with usually some religious beliefs, under the thumb, thinking what they are doing is the "right" thing.

I am tired of people getting all up in arms over some of the islamic ideas. There are millions and millions of muslis living in happy peace with these ideals, just as there are plenty of white christian abusers and horrendous shithead people.
Is it just me, or are you somehow trying to spin this favorably? Please tell me I'm wrong.

This person is a jackass, knows fuck-all about their own religion, and just killed their own daughter. There is no justification; in this society, it's a crime. Moonlit_Angel is exactly right; regardless of religion, behavior like this is absolutely unacceptable, and it just really galls me that Christianity is being used by you as an example of hypocrisy. But it's typical of most internet posters. I'm used to it by now.
__________________
LemonMelon is offline  
Old 12-17-2007, 01:48 AM   #22
ONE
love, blood, life
 
indra's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 12,689
Local Time: 10:38 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by LemonMelon


Is it just me, or are you somehow trying to spin this favorably? Please tell me I'm wrong.

This person is a jackass, knows fuck-all about their own religion, and just killed their own daughter. There is no justification; in this society, it's a crime. Moonlit_Angel is exactly right; regardless of religion, behavior like this is absolutely unacceptable, and it just really galls me that Christianity is being used by you as an example of hypocrisy. But it's typical of most internet posters. I'm used to it by now.
If the guy was a Christian this would only be a local story. It would be seen as a case of domestic violence and wouldn't be used to condemn an entire religion. In this case he's Muslim so that must be it and it must be sanctioned by his religion. A Christian -- even one who said his religion gave him the right to do this -- would just be thought of as an individual nutjob bastard. That's the difference. It really shouldn't be that difficult to understand.
__________________
indra is offline  
Old 12-17-2007, 05:17 AM   #23
Refugee
 
dazzlingamy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: The city of blinding lights and amazing coffee - Melbourne.
Posts: 2,468
Local Time: 01:38 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by LemonMelon


Is it just me, or are you somehow trying to spin this favorably? Please tell me I'm wrong.

This person is a jackass, knows fuck-all about their own religion, and just killed their own daughter. There is no justification; in this society, it's a crime. Moonlit_Angel is exactly right; regardless of religion, behavior like this is absolutely unacceptable, and it just really galls me that Christianity is being used by you as an example of hypocrisy. But it's typical of most internet posters. I'm used to it by now.
its also typical of internet posters to not read, or try to understand something before getting all annoyed at it first (i do it too)

You sort of didn't get what i'm trying to say. What has come accross to me is that people act like muslim people are wrong for havng a belief that woman should be covered and all that sexualisation sort of stuff. Would I want to live in a place like that? no. but do i BELITTLE a person because of their beliefs and say that they are neaderthals etc.
Do i think he was in the right for killing his daughter? of course not, i think its digusting and he can go to jail for the rest of his life. But the fact that a lot of arguments are like 'c'mon thats a total honour killing them muslims are wackjobs and need to go back to the sand dunes'

Its like the fathers who don't want their daughters wearing low cut tops and short skirts. They're worried that other boys/men will look at them and god forbid mght end up being sexually assulted. To a muslim man it is WRONG for other men to look at his daugher it is against his belief, and it is in his right to think like that. So what is she has to wear a headscarf, deal with it and when you're 18 move away or whatever. Its not a chained chastity belt, but the end point is, its not some muslim nutjob killing his daughter because of stupid ideals and fucked up religious beliefs, its a deranged man who killed his daughter because he's gone over the edge. A MAN not a MUSLIM.

thats all. im finding it hard how to explain this. Yolland needs to write a post for me!
__________________
dazzlingamy is offline  
Old 12-17-2007, 10:22 AM   #24
Blue Crack Addict
 
anitram's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: NY
Posts: 16,272
Local Time: 09:38 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by dazzlingamy

To a muslim man it is WRONG for other men to look at his daugher it is against his belief, and it is in his right to think like that. So what is she has to wear a headscarf, deal with it and when you're 18 move away or whatever. Its not a chained chastity belt, but the end point is, its not some muslim nutjob killing his daughter because of stupid ideals and fucked up religious beliefs, its a deranged man who killed his daughter because he's gone over the edge. A MAN not a MUSLIM.
I generally agree with you, but I think you're not really correct here.

That is to say nothing of this situation - although this girl actually lived very close to my parents, I've not followed the story closely. But from your posts I almost get the feeling like it shouldn't matter at all that he is a Muslim, and, yes, it perhaps should. As Yolland correctly pointed out, honour killings are something practiced by a small subset of the Pakistani population. However, if you look at criminal law, what pops up is that it is a far more common defence than offence - that is to say, in these kinds of situations, it is often the accused who will bring up cultural idiosyncracies as part of his defence, almost as often as the public will rely on it as an easy tool to explain what happened. In Canada, we have had lower court and appellate court decisions on cases like this (the courts have basically rejected it), but eventually there will be a case that goes to the Supreme Court and then it will be interesting to see how cultural issues such as this one will be addressed. The most famous case in the country thus far was a man who murdered his wife (stabbed her) because he suspected she was having an affair and then claimed honour killing as a defence.

The truth is usually somewhere in between the immediate reactionary statements ("Muslims are animals" vs. "this is just a case of domestic violence"), which is why I don't like either end of the spectrum.
__________________
anitram is online now  
Old 12-17-2007, 12:22 PM   #25
Blue Crack Addict
 
Liesje's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: In the dog house
Posts: 19,557
Local Time: 09:38 PM
Religion and culture will help me understand why he did this, but for me personally it does not excuse him one bit. I feel the same way about people of certain religions refusing medical care for their children, pharmacists refusing to give out certain drugs, elders forcing FGM on their daughters/nieces/granddaughters, etc.

I truly believe in "separation of church and state", especially the part where the state is protected from the church.
__________________
Liesje is offline  
Old 12-17-2007, 01:00 PM   #26
The Male
 
LemonMelon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Hollywoo
Posts: 65,790
Local Time: 06:38 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by anitram


I generally agree with you, but I think you're not really correct here.

That is to say nothing of this situation - although this girl actually lived very close to my parents, I've not followed the story closely. But from your posts I almost get the feeling like it shouldn't matter at all that he is a Muslim, and, yes, it perhaps should. As Yolland correctly pointed out, honour killings are something practiced by a small subset of the Pakistani population. However, if you look at criminal law, what pops up is that it is a far more common defence than offence - that is to say, in these kinds of situations, it is often the accused who will bring up cultural idiosyncracies as part of his defence, almost as often as the public will rely on it as an easy tool to explain what happened. In Canada, we have had lower court and appellate court decisions on cases like this (the courts have basically rejected it), but eventually there will be a case that goes to the Supreme Court and then it will be interesting to see how cultural issues such as this one will be addressed. The most famous case in the country thus far was a man who murdered his wife (stabbed her) because he suspected she was having an affair and then claimed honour killing as a defence.

The truth is usually somewhere in between the immediate reactionary statements ("Muslims are animals" vs. "this is just a case of domestic violence"), which is why I don't like either end of the spectrum.
Yeah, I agree with you. It simply sounds to me like (to quote Amy) a deranged man, misinterpreting his own book and using it for evil. Anyone religious does it from time to time, and let's face it, not everyone has the capacity to handle books like the Bible or Qur'an without completely misinterpreting their original meaning.

Indeed, if this were a Christian who had done this, it would just be viewed as domestic violence, but since Islam is becoming increasingly viewed as a violent religion, it's being used as the entire reason for the crime, which isn't really true. As liesje said, it helps a person understand why this crossed a person's mind as a logical solution to their domestic problem, but it certainly doesn't let them off the hook.

Sorry if I overreacted before.
__________________
LemonMelon is offline  
Old 12-17-2007, 02:57 PM   #27
War Child
 
AnnRKeyintheUSA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: not coming down
Posts: 603
Local Time: 08:38 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by indra


If the guy was a Christian this would only be a local story. It would be seen as a case of domestic violence and wouldn't be used to condemn an entire religion. In this case he's Muslim so that must be it and it must be sanctioned by his religion. A Christian -- even one who said his religion gave him the right to do this -- would just be thought of as an individual nutjob bastard. That's the difference. It really shouldn't be that difficult to understand.
It's because there is nothing in Christianity or western culture about honor killings when someone disobeys the rules. People of any and all, or no, religions can be abusive cads. It's only when there is a chance he may feel his actions were sanctioned by ancient religious teachings that makes the difference is whether or not he's a 'muslim'. When others act, they act of their own free will. When a muslim fundamentalist acts this way, it is very likely due to dogma. That's the difference.
__________________
AnnRKeyintheUSA is offline  
Old 12-17-2007, 03:25 PM   #28
Blue Crack Addict
 
Liesje's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: In the dog house
Posts: 19,557
Local Time: 09:38 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by AnnRKeyintheUSA

When others act, they act of their own free will. When a muslim fundamentalist acts this way, it is very likely due to dogma. That's the difference.
I don't follow. So only Muslim fundamentalists can make the argument that they act this way because of their religion and culture?

What about certain religious sects that will refuse life saving medical treatment for their children because it's against their religion/culture? They are making excuses, but a Muslim is justified?

Also, what about all the Muslims that would never, ever think of doing such a thing to their own child?
__________________
Liesje is offline  
Old 12-18-2007, 08:11 AM   #29
Refugee
 
dazzlingamy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: The city of blinding lights and amazing coffee - Melbourne.
Posts: 2,468
Local Time: 01:38 PM
oh and i totally agree that the idea of honour killing is abbhorant and has no place in society ANYWHERE let alone in a democratic society, but I just wanted to express a dismay for another hyped up 'those muslims are all psycho wack job' type of hyper stuff people seem to gravitate to.
__________________

__________________
dazzlingamy is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:38 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com