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Old 01-04-2007, 07:43 PM   #16
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Judah, sula or oceane, just out of idle curiosity, are any of you familiar with the (apparent?) bits of Islamic law pertaining to dogs that my Muslim friends mentioned? Like I said, they considered this particular situation ridiculous, but they did seem to indicate that there was indeed some sort of reasonably well-attested hadith or such pertaining to the idea that dogs are potentially "polluting" (in a narrow legal sense) in some ways having to do with their mouth or saliva or something. I was just wondering, because it wasn't something I'd ever heard of. In Jewish law too we have a few scattered rules pertaining to pets, nothing along those lines really, but there is a Talmudic injunction against keeping "attack" animals for example, which at least in my experience has evolved over time in some more insular Orthodox communities into an effective taboo against owning dogs at all. I suspect this is really more of a historic/culturo-economic thing having more to do with the nonconducive-to-dog-ownership circumstances their ancestors lived under than anything else, but it was surprising and interesting to me when I encountered it for the first time. Of course something similar could be true of my friends' ideas too, many Hindus in my experience regard dogs as "dirty" animals for example, so I wouldn't be surprised if South Asian Muslims' ideas have been affected by that in some ways. I also had a (Christian) friend in grad school from, uhhh where was it, Ghana I think, who I remember being disgusted by the way Americans allow our dogs to climb on and lick our kids, hang around the dinner table, and so forth--she felt bad about it, but explained she just couldn't get around the reaction because no one where she grew up considered it appropriate to allow dogs in such environments.

Anyhow I'm pretty much babbling now, but I was just wondering.

Thanks for the article Judah, sounds like my friends actually had it backwards about where the impetus for this was coming from, but it's interesting that there does indeed seem to be an "intra-Muslim-group politics" element to it as you say.
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Old 01-04-2007, 10:10 PM   #17
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The poor Minneapolis/St. Paul Airport has to to struggle through quite a few Muslim issue recently (first, the Imans refused transit by USAirways after praying before their flight, and this on-going issue).

This specific taxi driver issue has been on-going for a number of years. When I still lived in the area, I decided to "test" the situation, and told my Somali driver that I was just coming back from a holiday and received a few bottles of wine as a gift. Not so much as an acknowledgement of what I said.

I wonder if this is their way to pick and choose who they (as drivers) choose who to transport.

I would love to see the whole Iman issue discussed too! I am suprised by some of the more interesting topics that get washed over here in FYM for some of the more trash-like topics.
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Old 01-05-2007, 03:56 AM   #18
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Those Imams were doing more than just praying, they were aiming to make an event that CAIR could champion.
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Old 01-05-2007, 04:29 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by zonelistener
The poor Minneapolis/St. Paul Airport has to to struggle through quite a few Muslim issue recently (first, the Imans refused transit by USAirways after praying before their flight, and this on-going issue).
I've always been suspicious of people who make a public spectacle out of their prayer. I don't mean I think they are necessarily planing anything nefarious, but that they are seeking the attention of not their god but of the people around them. I suspect in this case these Imans got exactly the response they were seeking.
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Old 01-05-2007, 01:48 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by yolland
Judah, sula or oceane, just out of idle curiosity, are any of you familiar with the (apparent?) bits of Islamic law pertaining to dogs that my Muslim friends mentioned?
Growing up in Pakistan, we owned dogs (usually German Shepherds). Nothing in Islam against it. The Koran's big on "cleanliness" and Yolland you're right that there is more emphasis around dogs (than, say cats) and we were taught to not let dogs lick us, etc. Islam says to ensure cleanliness, try not to have your pet dogs in your house. But, hell, it's not something i'd have a Jihad over.

And the alcohol part? Please. Islam forbids intoxication but isn't that anal about drinking alcohol (the religion says that drinking can be bad for your health, and when something is bad, you should avoid it altogether). As with all religions, no matter what is written, its interpretation runs the spectrum/gamut of liberal-to-fundamentalist meanings. Check out couple of the Hadiths on what Paradise will be like (mostly, wine, women and song...and rivers of milk...can't beat that afterlife party scene, man):

"Surely the pious shall be in bliss,
upon couches gazing:
You find in their faces the shining bliss
as they are offered to drink of wine sealed,
whose seal is musk and whose mixture
is Tasnim, a fountain at which to drink
those brought nigh."
( The Stinters 20: 25 )

"This is the similitude of Paradise,
which the Godfearing have been promised:
Therein are rivers of water unstaling,
rivers of milk unchanging in flavour,
and rivers of wine - a delight to the drinkers,
rivers too, of honey purified;
and therein for them is every fruit "
(Muhammad XLVII: 15)

" for them (the Muslims) is reserved a definite
provision, fruit and a great honour in the Gardens of
Bliss reclining upon couches arranged face to face,
a cup from a fountain being passed round
to them, white, a pleasure to the drinkers .....
and with them wide-eyed maidens flexing
their glances as if they were slightly
concealed pearls." ( The Rangers 40: 45 )




More here on dogs:

http://www.islamicconcern.com/dogs.asp

1. It is NOT haraam to own a dog, though it is not hygienic to keep a dog in the house.

2. It is NOT haraam to touch a dog or any other animal. If the saliva of a dog touches you or any part of your clothing, then it is required of you to wash the body part touched and the item of clothing touched by the dog’s mouth or snout.

3. It is incumbent upon all Muslims who own animals, whether for farming or work purposes or as pets, to provide adequate shelter, food, water, and, when needed, veterinary care for their animals. Arrangements must be made, if one is going to be away from home, to have one’s animals taken care of as well.

4. It is haraam to keep a dog or any other animal on a short lead for long periods without food, water, and shelter. Dogs need exercise and are social creatures who form organized “family” structures in nature. Dog owners therefore need to spend time daily with their dogs.

5. It is cruel, and therefore haraam, to keep any animal in a cage so small that it cannot behave in a natural way.

6. Fireworks cause untold suffering to most domestic animals because of their acute sense of hearing.

7. It is haraam to participate in any blood “sport,” like dog fighting and trophy hunting.

No animal has been cursed in any way. Animals are referred to in many instances in the Qu’ran. In Surah Kahf, mention is made of the companions of the Cave and their dog. (S18: 18-22)
---------------

Also, more on cats and dogs for Moslems here:

http://www.islamonline.net/english/i...rticle04.shtml

In two separate hadiths narrated by Abu Hurayrah (the cat-loving Companion), the Prophet told his Companions of the virtue of saving the life of a dog by giving it water and quenching its thirst: one referred to was a man who was blessed by Allah for giving water to a thirsty dog. The other was a prostitute, who filled her shoe with water and gave it to a dog that was lolling its tongue in thirst. For this deed she was granted the ultimate reward: eternal Paradise.
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Old 01-05-2007, 02:18 PM   #21
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Thanks for the information and perspective Judah.
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Old 01-05-2007, 09:09 PM   #22
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Thanks, Judah.
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Old 01-05-2007, 09:12 PM   #23
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Hey Jesus turned water into wine and Muslim's believe Jesus to be a "prophet"... so GET OVER IT!!!
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Old 01-05-2007, 10:47 PM   #24
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Big Grin I still owe you a PM Indra

Quote:
Originally posted by indra


I've always been suspicious of people who make a public spectacle out of their prayer. I don't mean I think they are necessarily planing anything nefarious, but that they are seeking the attention of not their god but of the people around them. I suspect in this case these Imans got exactly the response they were seeking.
I agree and disagree (in other words, I have no idea what to think of their intentions). I cannot tell you what the Imans were after - it could have been the attention, or could have been actual prayer. What did bring attention to them is the fact that they insisted on having seat belt extension on the a/c and started changing seats when they got on...THAT would scare me a bit.

What interests me is a column that appeared in the Minneapolis Star Tribune connecting many of these Imans to terrorists....something that went fairly unnoticed.

They have created a "prayer area/room" at the Minneapolis airport. This is seperate from the non-denominational (sp?) chapel they have at the airport.
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Old 01-05-2007, 10:55 PM   #25
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Re: I still owe you a PM Indra

Quote:
Originally posted by zoney!
They have created a "prayer area/room" at the Minneapolis airport.
This has nothing to do with anything, but here goes. When Steve and I were flying out of LAX to New Hampshire in 2000, there were a bunch of Jewish kids on the flight going to some kind of camp. A bunch of the grown men seeing some of the kids off gathered round the kids and prayed heartily, yet tastefully. Steve and I grinned at each other and knew nothing was going to happen to our plane!
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Old 01-05-2007, 11:06 PM   #26
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Heathrow has a chapel and a seperate prayer room. It's very popular, every time I'm there people are always asking where it is, as opposed to the chapel.
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Old 01-07-2007, 07:35 AM   #27
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how would a cabbie know you have alcohol on you?
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