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Old 06-08-2006, 01:57 PM   #61
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The "offensive" label is used to control the discussion, not evaluate the statement.

Hollywood should be big enough to take a jab now and again.
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Old 06-08-2006, 02:19 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
The "offensive" label is used to control the discussion, not evaluate the statement.

Hollywood should be big enough to take a jab now and again.




do i need to be here for this discussion or would a cardboard cut-out suffice?
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Old 06-08-2006, 07:43 PM   #63
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Originally posted by AchtungBono


I apologize for offending you but not for what I said.

If you're anti-war then that means that you don't want to fight the terrorists (you = general term), and if you don't want to fight the terrorists then that means that you want them to continue doing what they're doing......

How ELSE would you defeat them if you don't fight them??
I'm not sure "antiwar" is really applicable to the situation.
Irvine said it was a false dichotomy, I tend to agree with that.
I think these days, there is a crowd that wants to win and a crowd that wants to lose. I don't mean to parse and play semantics here, but it is important to the way we all discuss these issues with each other. Do we make any real differences? No. But I think we'd all like to resolve things in our own minds, maybe we help each other in small ways.

With that said, pacifists don't live in the real world.
So if this is who you are talking about, then I'd agree.
It's nice to have this hippy idealism when you are 20 and full of ideas about the world, but eventually you'd like to think a dose of reality is served to these people. I wish I could be a pacifist, it's just not realistic by any stretch of the imagination. So if you have to fight a war, then you should fight to win, otherwise you are not only a fool, you're going to lose.

Speaking of this, if you should have to fight a war, has it ever been more apparent that fighting wars should be a very last option? So if by anti-war, you mean anti-Iraq war, I think there needs to be some context.

There is a leftist crowd that has reached a point where they'd probably favor a loss in Iraq, if not this, then a total withdrawal and failure if only because they hate the policy and the policy makers. So if you're talking about these people, then I'd agree as well.

But finally, there are tons of well-principled, well-thought, tough minded people who think the Iraq was was wrong in many different ways and that all it has done is intesify the terrorist problem, in fact making it worse. So these "antiwar" people, I don't think have any problem fighting terrorism, they just see through the poltical charade of false patritotism that plagues the right wing.

I think in the end, we need to start talking about the "anti-war" crowd in terms of those who want to win and those who don't.

If you don't want us to win, you've lost your fucking mind. You've disappeared up your own arse. If you want us to win, it hardly matters why you favor or oppose the politics of the war, because you aren't really 'anti-war' in terms of victory, you are only 'anti-war' to a select crowd of blinded partisan fools. Because they need you to support their politics as well. I've been doing my best to move past the politics of the situation, might not always work, but I think the picture is just getting bigger.
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Old 06-08-2006, 07:47 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511

i think that's a misrepresentation of Michael Moore.

i also wonder if there aren't lines to be drawn up between the insurgency, and Al-Qaeda in Iraq.

that said, and it bothers me that i have to actually come out and say this but such is the current climate, i do not see either the insurgency or Al-Qaeda as forces of national liberation.
Then what is the proper context of his quote equating the Iraqi "resistance" to the American minutemen?

Another example is George Galloway who has made it abundantly clear in his platform that he is not anti-war, he is just pro-war for the other side.
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Old 06-08-2006, 07:54 PM   #65
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Originally posted by digsy
wow
i'm reading some pretty fucked up commentary in this thread
what the hell is wrong with some of you???

i think a few of you need to take a leaf out of Micheal Bergs book - a man who has closer ties to this situation than any of you can imagine
I agree.

Murder is wrong
Murdering the murderer is wrong.
Murder is wrong
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Old 06-08-2006, 07:58 PM   #66
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Murdering a murderer who would murder many more is less wrong than leaving the murderer to murder multitudes.
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Old 06-08-2006, 08:04 PM   #67
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Murdering a murderer who would murder many more is less wrong than leaving the murderer to murder multitudes.
and how many innocents getting killed along the way is acceptable?

The rules or war are wierd aren't they?
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Old 06-08-2006, 08:05 PM   #68
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Celebrating murder is wrong
Celebrating murdering the murderer is wrong.
Celebrating murder is wrong.

I'm not good with English. I'm EFL. But you know what I'm trying to say.

Murder is bad, badder than bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad.
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Old 06-08-2006, 08:07 PM   #69
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


and how many innocents getting killed along the way is acceptable?

The rules or war are wierd aren't they?
It would be unnaceptable for an attack to be launced in the knowledge of inflicting any civilian casualties.
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Old 06-08-2006, 08:13 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
It would be unnaceptable for an attack to be launced in the knowledge of inflicting any civilian casualties.
So as long as there's no "knowledge" it doesn't matter the number?
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Old 06-08-2006, 08:14 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally posted by Shag On A Rock
Celebrating murder is wrong
Celebrating murdering the murderer is wrong.
Celebrating murder is wrong.

I'm not good with English. I'm EFL. But you know what I'm trying to say.

Murder is bad, badder than bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad.
Define murder.

I know what you're trying to say, but apparently you don't understand the capacity to defend oneself. Or do you?
I'll let you explain if you'd like.
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Old 06-08-2006, 08:19 PM   #72
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I didn't say that it doesn't matter, I said that if civilian casualties were a definite concequence of a strike then it wouldn't be right to take that strike. If the decision was made then it may well be unacceptable and deserving of reprimand.

That is a seperate issue from inadvertant civilian deaths which do tend to happen in situations where an enemy deliberately blurs the distinction between civilian and fighter. These can be minimised with effective procedure and practice, the US military has come a long way from the Free Fire Zones of Vietnam.
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Old 06-08-2006, 08:40 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
I didn't say that it doesn't matter, I said that if civilian casualties were a definite concequence of a strike then it wouldn't be right to take that strike. If the decision was made then it may well be unacceptable and deserving of reprimand.

.
with this case

the colateral damage

will not get much play



however there are many cases where bombs have been used
knowing there were multiple others in buildings with the target.

these could be called murder
the "willful taking of innocent life."
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Old 06-08-2006, 08:42 PM   #74
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If the decision was made then it may well be unacceptable and deserving of reprimand.
and statements like this
make me again say
I find your thinking detached and bizarre.
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Old 06-08-2006, 08:47 PM   #75
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And I say that there is a distinction between a case where the intelligence says that there is a terrorist hiding out in a house shared by a family and then launching a missile strike versus a situation where the information says that there isn't a family in the building.

You insist that it is detatched and bizare, could you elaborate?
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